RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
How torn do you think it was?
Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting
- Thread starter bknight
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How torn do you think it was?
MicahJava
Illuminator
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It's like, how much more torn could this be? and the answer is none. None more torn.
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
How many centimeters is that?
Axxman300
Philosopher
See, the difference between you and I is that I am an old-school CTist. Before the internet, people like me had to construct a plausible line of BS to use as the foundation for our woo.
Just because elite brothels existed doesn't mean they used the dollar bill gag, but they are a place few people visited, and the odds are that nobody posting on this board was ever a customer of such establishments in 1963. This allows for a solid wall of smoke to cloud the issue, and in this case is can work against Oswald. It sounds plausible because the brothels were places few people have seen, and fewer have been inside as a paying customer. Juxtapose the shadow brothel concept with the JFK Assassination, an event that happened in broad daylight, and was filmed from three angles.
The lies began right from the start with "witnesses" claiming the back of the President's head being blown out, and later in the 1970's these same liars claimed that the Zapruder Film showed the back of the head exploding when it clearly does not.
The other thing none of the films show, nor did ANY eye-witness report is a second GSW to the back of the head. This is fantasy. Compared to the shadow-brothels it isn't plausible at all because there is zero evidence to support it. Brothels existed in Dallas in 1963, and there were certainly upscale ones. No second bullet struck JFK's head.
The dollar bills are just what the DPD said they are: torn. No spy agency, no mob family, no secret organization would have had anything to do with Oswald. He was unstable, and would have been a huge risk. People used to write on money all the time for many reasons, the presence of numbers written in pencil meant nothing in 1963.
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Tomtomkent
Philosopher
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I suspect that as with all subjective words it can ONLY mean what a CT needs to assume for it to have consequence.
bknight
Master Poster
I remember watching a documentary concerning either the assassination or Oswald, I don't remember which. In the documentary former KBG agents/supervisors commented the same concept on they wouldn't have anything to do with Oswald because he was unstable/unreliable.
HSienzant
Philosopher
No, it doesn't. Repetition doesn't make your argument more true. You haven't shown there is any link between the one torn bill in Oswald's possession and the notation to two bills torn in half discovered in the DPD archives. You haven't even attempted to link these latter bills to Oswald. If they are not Oswald's - and you have no evidence they are - then you're simply closing all your gaps in your speculations with ever more speculation.
And an even simpler - and more mundane - explanation minus all your 'spy technique' speculations is that he received that dollar bill in change after he bought something earlier that day or earlier that week. From your own argument above, you're now admitting it couldn't be used to identify Oswald's speculated contact in the Texas Theatre, because it was not yet torn in half and not yet provided to his speculated contact. So you have zero evidence this is connected with meeting anyone anywhere.
It's okay that you have no evidence, only speculation and conjecture. You can admit it. We all know you have nothing.
Hank
HSienzant
Philosopher
You tell me. This is *your* speculation, not mine. You brought it up months ago in the prior thread. You still have no evidence, and you're reduced to now speculating about how torn it was.
MicahJava;11948205The handwritten note from the [URL="http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/22/2288-001.gif" said:
Exactly. And there's no link to Oswald on the handwritten note whatsoever, so you are reduced to again *speculating* it had some connection to Oswald.
What an absurd question. I don't doubt that's exactly what it's describing. What you haven't shown is any link to Oswald for these two half dollar bills.
You need to tell me. This is your argument from ignorance, not mine. You don't get to close the gap here by simply asking "where did these come from?" and then assuming what you need to prove. But that's exactly what you're attempting to do above.
I find it more than a little amusing that CTs will constantly question hard evidence like business records indicating the C2766 rifle was shipped from Kleins to Oswald's PO Box, or refuse to draw reasonable conclusions like the two witnesses who saw Oswald with a long package that morning saw him with the disassembled rifle within a paper sack that was later found on the sixth floor, but then jump from a partially torn dollar bill in his possession to the conclusion that this indicated 'spy craft'.
Who hasn't received a partially torn dollar bill in change for a purchase at some time or other?
Hank
HSienzant
Philosopher
So how torn was it, and why is that pertinent to anything?
Per this site:
https://www.theatlantic.com/busines...of-money-who-does-it-why-when-and-how/236990/
"How much money does the Fed destroy? In 2010, its cash offices destroyed 5.95 billion notes. In 2009, that number was even larger at 6.05 billion notes. A large proportion of those notes were $1 and $20 bills, which are the workhorses of the American economy. In 2010, 2.6 billion $1 bills were destroyed."
That's 2.6 billion $1 bills in one year.
Per this site,
https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-01.pdf
The U. S. population in 2010 was almost 310 million people. So that's more than eight (but fewer than nine) $1 bills destroyed ever year for every man, woman, and child in the U. S. in that year. That means at any given time there is likely to be one or more $1 bills in the hands of a given adult in the U.S. that is nearing the end of its useful lifespan.
Further, it also notes the average life span of a $1 bill is just 3.7 years. The partially torn bill in Oswald's possession with the notation '300' on it was issued in 1957... six years prior. It was likely reaching the end of its useful life in the system, and the tear and notation are something not unexpected of bills in the system that long.
You are taking a simple case of a used bill and building speculation upon speculation to make an apparent mountain out of a small depression in the ground -- it's not even a molehill you've started with here.
Hank
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Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
This is among the many things you haven't answered, MicahJava. You brought it up and thought it had some sort of importance so you'll need to flesh it out a little.
How torn was the bill and what activities are you linking it to? You needn't run away your entire life.
Imhotep
Graduate Poster
Why on earth would the imposter be needed if Oswald was there anyway, submitting a visa application and providing a photo? Did whoever was running this operation have an unlimited budget?
You're making some assumptions there.
So Oswald applied for a Cuban and Russian transit visa, but somebody else placed the follow-up call to the Russian embassy? Why wouldn't Oswald do that? The real Oswald applies for the Cuban and Russian visa, right? What on earth is gained by having someone else follow-up, pretending to be Oswald? There's plenty to be lost if the ruse is exposed, so why bother?
You're also making some assumptions there.
Say what? She worked at the Cuban embassy. I would think her co-workers would have noticed if some different woman just showed up for work one day pretending to be Sylvia. Don't you? (Note: Duran isn't mentioned in the article by Simpich cited). Maybe it would be easier to just note the people with a connection to the assassination that weren't doubled.
You're making the assumptions there that it was a physical impersonation. Duran is absolutely mentioned in State Secret. Then you build up to your sarcastic conclusion. Sounds like your criticism of Simpich come to life, perhaps you are doing an impersonation
Nyaah. The CIA didn't have photos of Oswald available to compare to the people entering the embassy, so at the time of the request, they forwarded photos of the person they thought could be Oswald. He wasn't.
Nyaah, what? I didn't offer anything about the photo, you are criticizing some assumed position of mine? I happen to agree with you, sorry.
Not from what I can see. It is 10% factual, 90% speculation. Here's just one paragraph, see if you can spot the speculation (ok, I've bolded it to make it easy on you):
"But maybe there was more at stake. Perhaps they wanted to see whether the Soviets thought that Oswald might be useful as a possible way to draw out Popov. Or maybe the idea was to dangle Oswald as bait to draw out the mole that had exposed Popov."
I count four speculations in three sentences. The whole article is like that.
You haven't read the whole article.
Here's an excellent early example of where Simpich goes wrong, and has absolutely no evidence to support his statement. And he's so far off the mark it's funny. Simpich wrote:
"Here’s a good way to start this story. Why did this man Oswald try to defect to the Soviet Union, come back saying he had seen the light, and then try to go back again a year later?
Something was going on with this man. Was he being used in some way?"
That last sentence above becomes Simpich's unstated conclusion he is seeking to prove. But he ignores totally a simple reason for Oswald's desire to gain access to Cuba & Russian for both himself and his wife and child. He had attempted to kill General Walker in April of 1963, and he hadn't abandoned that; just put it on the backburner while he tried to open up an excape hatch for himself and his family. When he wrote the Russian Embassy attempting to re-enter the Soviet Union, he asked that his wife's application be considered *Separately* from his own. He had no intention of accompanying Marina and his daughter June back to Russia, nor of going there himself. But he knew enough to know that just dumping a pregnant Marina (already with one child) on the Soviet Union as a ward of the state wouldn't fly. Hence the pretense to apply himself for re-entry. Instead, he would ship them there, kill Walker, defect to Cuba via Mexico City (once he had the visa in hand), and then get re-united in Cuba with his family as the Cubans hail him as a national hero for killing Walker.
That was his plan as I see it, in any case.
There's nobody there guiding him, there's no master plan to uncover moles using Oswald, there's nothing but a lone nut plotting the assassination of General Walker and attempting to evade U.S. punishment by escaping to Cuba. He had tried once before without the escape hatch in place and his immediate action was to quit his job (telling Marina he was fired) and leave for New Orleans "looking for work". Note in every application thereafter he left Dallas out of the equation. For example, this is the information Officer Francis Martello was told by Oswald after his arrest in New Orleans for disturbing the peace:
"The notes of my interview reflect that OSWALD gave his date of birth as October 18, 1938 at New Orleans, Louisiana; that he served three years in the U.S. Marine Corps and stated he was honorably discharged on July 17, 1959 from Santa Ana, California. His wife's name was MARINO PROSSA, a white female, age 21. OSWALD stated he had one daughter, JUNE LEE OSWALD, white female, 17 months of age, and he had been residing at 4907 Magazine Street with his wife and daughter for the past four months. OSWALD said that since 1959 he resided at 4709 Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, Texas and had also lived in Arlington, Texas. OSWALD said his mother's name was MARGARET OSWALD, his father, ROBERT LEE OSWALD, being deceased. He told me he had two brothers, ROBERT OSWALD, living in Fort Worth, Texas, and JOHN OSWALD, Arlington, Texas. He also stated he lived somewhere on Exchange Place in New Orleans but could not remember the address, and that he had attended Beauregard Junior High School and Warren Easton High School, both in New Orleans, and that he attended Riegeala West Elementary School in Fort Worth, Texas. OSWALD told me he had moved to New Orleans from Fort Worth about four months [ago]".
Note he claims he lived in Fort Worth, not Dallas, and note he says he moved from Fort Worth, not Dallas, to New Orleans.
He was smart enough to leave Dallas out of the equation entirely. Oswald wasn't a dummy. After his arrest following the assassination, he left the Neely Street address he lived at (Neely Street is where the backyard photos were taken) out of his history he gave to everyone who interrogated him. Two people gave sufficient detail that it is clear Oswald was concealing he lived at Neely Street like he earlier concealed living in Dallas.
http://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0317b.htm
http://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0321a.htm
Hank
Okay. All I said was that the MC trip deserves further scrutiny. Oswald and Duran were impersonated on the phone, most researchers agree on this. It doesn't mean there was a huge conspiracy in the works and that everyone was in on it, with Oswald the poor innocent hero being bamboozled, and I have no desire to defend that position.
On Simpich's speculations, yes the article is rife with them. That's because we don't know a whole lot about what happened, we have bits and pieces. Most of the information was tied up because it could have exposed our very successful MC wiretapping operations. Simpich's theory is that is the exact reason why the phone impersonation took place. How do you think Oswald was aware of Kostikov by the way?
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Axxman300
Philosopher
The Cubans knew we were listening, and were careful about what they said, and where they said it. CIA probably suspected this, but even fake conversations are useful in intelligence.
Like I said, the newly released documents suggest a gap between the CIA station in Mexico City and Langley in what information was passed up the chain, and when it was sent (if ever). It is quite possible that on 11/24/63 someone at the Mexico City station put two & two together, and realized they had recordings of Oswald bragging about his plan to kill JFK, and decided to cover their own butt before they were hung out to dry for being the clown who let the assassin waltz in and out of town without reporting the threat to Washington.
At this point, if you're looking for a conspiracy in relation to the assassination this would be it.
We are eight weeks away from the final document dump from the National Archives. The recent batch has proved to be interesting as far as shedding light on the CIA's operations, and mind-set during that era.
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Imhotep
Graduate Poster
Thanks Axxman, it looks like our conclusions and suspicions about all this align closely. Have you read or heard anything interesting about Nosenko in the newly released stuff? Have you read Bagley? Do you agree that Nosenko was either a false defector or a low-level operative that had been fed information for release to the CIA by the KGB?
HSienzant
Philosopher
If he was a false defector or had just been fed info to pass to the CIA, don't you think he would have come clean after the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991? Or is Nosenko like those Japanese soldiers who have to be convinced that WWII ended decades ago?
At this point, what's in it for him to maintain the charade?
Hank
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bknight
Master Poster
At this point my thoughts drift toward "discussion continuation".
Imhotep
Graduate Poster
He died in 2008, but before that he was getting paid to lecture CIA personnel. Can you imagine the embarrassment of the CIA in that situation? However, from Nosenko's point of view, a "Tell All" book could have made him some more money. Perhaps he was comfortable in America and didn't want to jeopardize it. He had a thing for drinking and cavorting with women, which maybe he feared he would lose going back to Russia... but that's all speculation.
It's a fact that when interviewed about basic facts about the KGB building he said he worked in, he couldn't describe where the elevators were, the basic office procedures like protocol for sending or receiving a fax, etc. He had a tattoo that associated him with a criminal gang and seemed to have a lot of knowledge about the Russian prison system. He got names and dates wrong. He pretty much blew it on all their "control" questions basically.
HSienzant
Philosopher
Yes, I've highlighted the words that introduce your speculations.
According to whom? Were faxes even in common use at the time he defected? I don't recall fax machines being prevalent until about two decades after his defection - early 1980s.
Nosenko is not the holy grail. Sorry. He could be lying for his own purposes about a lot of things (like his rank) and still be telling the truth about Russia's non-involvement with Oswald. As noted above, and numerous times in the past, Oswald was hardly the type of individual any agency would recruit.
Hank
Imhotep
Graduate Poster
Yes, I've highlighted the words that introduce your speculations.
Well you basically asked me to speculate by asking the question.
According to whom? Were faxes even in common use at the time he defected? I don't recall fax machines being prevalent until about two decades after his defection - early 1980s.
That would be according to Bagley, the CIA officer in charge of Nosenko interviews. Fax machines have been around since the '60s (according to a quick Google search).
Nosenko is not the holy grail. Sorry. He could be lying for his own purposes about a lot of things (like his rank) and still be telling the truth about Russia's non-involvement with Oswald. As noted above, and numerous times in the past, Oswald was hardly the type of individual any agency would recruit.
I didn't claim he was the holy grail. No, if you read (and believe) Bagley's book, it's obvious that Nosenko was not just trying to puff up his rank. I didn't claim Oswald was recruited. I'm not trying to slip in a backdoor Oswald defense, I think you've had too many interactions with moron CTs, Hank
Hank
My text in green
HSienzant
Philosopher
Not sure you can find any evidence at this late date. Certainly, any admissions by anyone contradicting what they said in 193-1964 must be taken with a grain of salt, and chalked up to failing memory, a desire to inflate their own importance, and the like. It won't be granted much credence.
When you say 'researchers' above you actually mean 'conspiracy theorists', don't you? If conspiracy theorists agree on anything other than a conspiracy, paint me floored.
Well, who was running the process, and what was the point of fake phone calls from someone other than Oswald? They already had him on record as demanding a Cuban and Russian visa, didn't they? What was even the necessity of the follow up call? How does Duran enter into all this? Can you be more explicit about what position you are defending?
And, as I've shown, if Simpich goes off the rails early on with any of his speculations, he winds up with his train of thought crashing through the forest, hurtling down the hillside, and coming to rest in a creek far from the actual path of the train tracks.
Huh? Walk me through that, slowly. Who did this and why? To accomplish what? Was this done in late September, before the assassination?
I thought Oswald was interviewed by Kostikov at one point during his Mexico City visit. If you're asking how Oswald knew to write in his letter to the Soviets that Kostikov had been replaced, isn't that evidence that Oswald - and not some double - was the one making follow-up calls to the Mexico City embassies? Or was the double kindly sharing all his information with Oswald?
I don't get your argument here.
Hank
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