• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

Status
Not open for further replies.
If not for you, then certainly for others, the conversion would really have begun when you abandoned the goal of simply blaming the designated enemy and focused instead on trying to determine what really happened. That shift naturally leads to broadening your sources of information.
...
I never really thought about it like that, but you're right. What was really involved was first a necessary paradigm shift,* away from the methodology of selecting evidence to reach a goal to making the goal whatever was supported by all the evidence.

*"Paradigm shift" is a phrase I really dislike using, because it's become such a go-to cliche for woos- "you gotta shift paradigms, man!" But I suppose it's perfectly legitimate to point out "I did- I just shifted away from yours."
 
This effect is familiar to others who have experience with high-powered projectiles. Especially with many types of rifle rounds, only a very little energy is transferred to the target in a direct linear fashion that creates momentum. This is a common effect in high-velocity collisions and generally not appreciated by laymen. The damage the bullet does to a soft target is typically from temporary cavitation, an effect observed in Kennedy's case, and which is particularly devastating for head shots because the cranium is not sufficiently elastic and evulses rather than rebounds in response to the cavitation pressure wave.

Axial transfer of energy does not dominate the physics here. Instead, energy is initially diverted transversely as a result of the fluid response, much the way a boat's wake moves laterally. Then other properties of fluid dynamics entrain (draws along) fluid material behind it. The bullet that struck Kennedy had a relatively high sectional density, thus decreasing the primary effect and increasing the cavitation and entrainment. The rearward component of the President's motion is the Newtonian response to the ejecta entrained by the bullet. The leftward component is the Newtonian response to the momentum of the evulsion resulting from the asymmetrically uncontained cavitation.

During the first half of the 20th century, the design of infantry rifles and their ammunition favored a high power, high velocity, high sectional density round. The infantryman was considered little different from a big-game hunter. He needed an rifle that was accurate and had plenty of penetrating power. This was the equipment Oswald was able to obtain privately.

Had Oswald chosen a "modern" 7.62 millimeter slug (especially a fragmentation bullet) and an assault rifle of the 1960s, the results might have been different. More of the energy would have been transferred in the primary bullet channel, and the supposed Newtonian reaction "back and to the left" would have more justification in physics. But the missile that hit Kennedy was slim, heavy, and moving very fast. The skull responded to the impact not by absorbing it elastically but by shattering. No momentum created there. The cerebral matter responded not by spongily absorbing it but by being deflected to the sides (pressurization, but little net momentum except where the already-weakened cranium failed) and then being entrained (lots of momentum). The Newtonian reaction to this phenomenon creates "back and to the left."

The conspiracy theorists generally first applied only pidgin physics to this problem. Hence the "back and to the left" observation in the Zapruder film necessitated a shooter in front of Kennedy and to his right, which suggested some location variously along the Grassy Knoll. (Only a very few locations within this area would have concealed a shooter, none of them especially conducive to the purported fatal shot from the front.) However, nowadays the pidgin physics have largely fallen by the wayside and conspiracy theorists now focus on trying to discredit the Zapruder film as a forgery.

WRT "Fragmentation" bullets.

I once became enamored with pre-fragmented bullets, specifically the Glaser Safety Slug in it's various calibers, both handgun and rifle. The advertising hype back in the late 1970's early 1980's was "Stopping power second only to the 180 grain JHP .44 Magnum...in a Nine Millimeter!"

I fell for it hook, line and sinker.

The rounds fed and functioned 100%, good to go there, and the accuracy was on par with standard defensive rounds, good there too. The only problem, which never came up in static testing, is that on living human targets that shoot first or shoot back there wasn't much terminal effect at all outside of a headshot - first hand experience otj by one of my friends had the round impacting and making a nasty surface wound, but the thing didn't penetrate deep enough to stop the target.

In the rifle calibers, and I had them in 7.62 NATO and 30/06, I then decided to get a quantity of ballistic gelatin to see if the rifle calibers would be similar or better. On BG, the rounds created a more or less bore diameter entrance and the gelatin had major displacement from the temporary cavity and the dispersion of the birdshot from the round, but the rounds didn't reach the desired 12" or more penetration for defensive purposes on a human target.

The rounds belong in a cartridge collection, not in a firearm intended for defensive use.

I could have sidestepped all the hype and drama by simply listening to my father, who said when I told him about the stuff before I knew the score - "There's no such thing as a magic bullet."

As to head wounds from the .30 caliber class of rifles, a solid hit within the ranges of the JFK shooting distances would not have left much, even using standard military ball ammo, but even headwounds aren't always an instant stoppper. I know of two individuals that have survived headshots with the former combloc 7.62 x 39 round, which isn't in the same class as .303 Brit, 7.62 x 54r, 7.62 NATO or 30/06, but you'd think rifle caliber rounds to the head would be garranteed fatal, but anything can happen.
 
"There's no such thing as a magic bullet."

Conspiracy theorists have been saying that for years. :D

As to head wounds from the .30 caliber class of rifles, a solid hit within the ranges of the JFK shooting distances would not have left much...

I shudder to think what would have happened if the entry wound had been a couple inches to the left. Even as it is, the Zapruder film gave me heebie-jeebies when I first saw it as a kid.

As I wrote above, the infantry weaponry that included the Carcano was designed according to the philosophy that it should differ little from a big-game hunting rifle.

...even using standard military ball ammo...

My old Navy .36 revolver had a substantial ball but a fairly low velocity. I used to joke that you pull the trigger and there's a huge cloud of smoke and a noise like thunder. Then the ball rolls out the muzzle and falls on the ground at your feet.

Look at the rifled rounds from the Civil War. Wide, heavy, and accurate. Amputations abounded because they tended to shatter bones.

even headwounds aren't always an instant stoppper.

Much earlier in the thread we discussed the physiology of gunshot wounds to the head, including Giffords, Brady, and Lincoln.
 
Conspiracy theorists have been saying that for years. :D



I shudder to think what would have happened if the entry wound had been a couple inches to the left. Even as it is, the Zapruder film gave me heebie-jeebies when I first saw it as a kid.

As I wrote above, the infantry weaponry that included the Carcano was designed according to the philosophy that it should differ little from a big-game hunting rifle.



My old Navy .36 revolver had a substantial ball but a fairly low velocity. I used to joke that you pull the trigger and there's a huge cloud of smoke and a noise like thunder. Then the ball rolls out the muzzle and falls on the ground at your feet.

Look at the rifled rounds from the Civil War. Wide, heavy, and accurate. Amputations abounded because they tended to shatter bones.



Much earlier in the thread we discussed the physiology of gunshot wounds to the head, including Giffords, Brady, and Lincoln.

I'm a fan of the old black powder percussion revolvers, and it's always an enjoyable day taking them out and warming them up.

There's quite a bit of research about the relative terminal effectiveness of the round ball projectile v. the conical types.

Civil War era examinations of the external and terminal ballistics of the two rounds showed that the ball was a better stopper while the conical type gave better accuracy - I can't comment on terminal effectiveness but with the question of accuracy, the conical slug always performs better on paper with original or reproduction examples of the 1860 Colt.

It's my reading that the terminal effectiveness of the ball rounds seemed to be enhanced by the trajectory characteristics, specifically the tendency of the ball to not just bore straight through soft tissue like the conical - a ball would sometimes change interior trajectory to follow the path of least resistance in soft tissue - (how do it know?) - and was therefor more of a challenge to treat the wound. Infection was just as big as a threat during/after surgery as the bullets on the battlefield, and the non-fatal wounded become a drain on the logistics and material of the opponent. A win/win in battlefield calculus.

I've shot both balls and conicals recreationally, and since I'm usually shooting BP strictly for fun the accuracy question is no big thing, but if I was to be restricted to using the 1860 as a defensive firearm I'd still stick to the conicals and the three P's - Practice, Practice, Practice.
 
lol that one still makes me laugh - then cringe.

That ex-member got slapped about right left and center on that issue. The only certainty is that it made no difference to him. The only hope is that it made at least some difference to any observers.
 
That ex-member got slapped about right left and center on that issue. The only certainty is that it made no difference to him. The only hope is that it made at least some difference to any observers.

I haven't been around here as you guys, but I'll admit the poster in questions was of a type - what type, I have no idea.
 
I haven't been around here as you guys, but I'll admit the poster in questions was of a type - what type, I have no idea.
Well, we do know he was a pee stained khakis and Guy Fawkes mask kinda guy. He also seemed to have an obsession with LHO's chin...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom