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Merged Jeffrey MacDonald did it. He really did.

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Lets start by fixing your post so I can read it more easily since you don't seem to want to yourself.

Oh look, you can even do it with the menu bar.
SG said:
"After 49 posts you might want to learn how to use the 'reply with quote' function."

SG: I've posted on discussion boards since 2004, and that has been my style from Day One.
So you post your way and the rest of us can just figure it out. Nice.:rolleyes:

SG said:
"I found the duplicate thread with a simple search of thread titles for "MacDonald"."

SG: A few days ago, there were 5 pages of threads on the Social Issues topic, but this thread was gone.
The thread was gone and now it's back? That's your claim? Hard to believe.

SG said:
"Also a useful task for any new member to learn how to do. But even simpler was to just go to your "subscribed threads". You appear to be subscribed to only 6 threads.[/url] You'll find "subscribed threads" in the drop down box under "user CP" in the forum menu bar."

SG: Thanks.
You're welcome.

SG said:
"As adamant as you are about "knowing the truth" others are equally adamant that they know a different truth."

SG: Different truth, eh? Nonsense. Morris is simply blathering away about perception in order to gloss over the facts of this case.
So say you. I don't get that impression at all.

SG said:
"I did not get the idea Morris was "playing games"."

SG: In regards to this case, Morris is the ultimate game player. Judging by the FACT that he avoids 90 percent of the government's case in his book, he is also a coward. He chides Joe McGinniss for misleading MacDonald about the conclusions drawn in Fatal Vision, yet Morris flat-out lied to me and everyone he spoke to about this case in regards to his stance on MacDonald's guilt or innocence. So, Morris is a con man, a coward, and a hypocrite.
So say you again. Critics don't agree. I didn't hear any of that from the Book TV program.

SG said:
"I do have an opinion on the too frequent police and prosecutorial incompetence and misconduct. I also have an opinion on the effect of a narrative on people's perception of 'evidence'."

SG: The prosecution presented over 1,100 evidentiary items at the 1979 trial and that was only about 60 percent of their case file. This included blood, hair, fiber, bloody footprint, fabric damage, and bloody fabric impression evidence. The AFIP's DNA test results produced 5 inculpatory results. Not one hair, fiber, or fingerprint has been sourced to a known intruder suspect. Not one. Morris, however, is so arrogant that he flat-out ignores all of that in favor of a gut feeling. Morris isn't big on critical thinking.
Definitely not what Morris has to say on the matter. But at least here's something that can be addressed. See where I addressed this below to make it more clear, that is the actual discussion of the case.

SG said:
"Why should we believe your truth and not Morris' or Henri's?"

SG: Morris is an attention-seeker with an agenda whereas Henri is a MacDonald groupie. Henri has been posting for years on MacDonald case discussion boards and his information is culled directly from MacDonald camp propaganda. My truth is the same truth embraced by the CID, FBI, DOJ, and anyone who has taken the time to read the documented record in this case.
Sounds to me like you are an anti-MacDonald groupie yourself. How should I deal with that?

SG said:
"I'm curious, why does this case mean so much to you? And is that your own web page that you've linked to?"

SG: That is my website. I state on my Home Page the reasons why I started the website and why this case interests me. I've researched this case for the past 28 years, had conversations with several people involved in this case, and have accumulated a mass of case material (e.g., written correspondence, lab notes, court records, books, and DVD's).

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
Fascinating. Where's your book?


I don't know anything about this case except the basics and Morris' book discussion. But right away I find the issue of suppressed evidence is clearly controversial and contradicts your claim no such evidence exists.
Suppressed Physical Evidence Indicating That Someone Else, Not Dr. MacDonald, Murdered His Family

Although the Army's hearing officer cleared MacDonald, he was later brought to trial in the civilian courts. During that trial, prosecutor Brian Murtagh assured the jurors that nothing was found at the murder scene to support MacDonald's story of intruders. When the defense attorneys asked to see the withheld laboratory notes, so that they could determine for themselves if any corroborating evidence existed, the prosecutor untruthfully insisted that the documents held nothing that supported MacDonald's claims. Upon this promise, the judge then refused to force Murtagh to turn over the documents.

As shown below, those documents, later released through the Freedom of Information Act, contradict the prosecutor's statements. They demonstrate that the Army deliberately suppressed a great deal of evidence that indicated the presence of intruders in the house.

Suppressed Evidence on the Body of Colette MacDonald

Human skin under Colette's fingernail, left hand, was lost. ...

Unmatched black wool fibers were found on Colette's mouth and shoulder and the murder club.. These were not reported. The government tried to source the black wool to garments in the MacDonald home but could not. At trial, the presence of black wool fibers on the murder club was kept from the jury. These fibers were also important because Stoeckley was known to have affected a wardrobe of black clothing.(CID Lab Note, March 6, 1970; FBI Lab Notes)
A 2 inch long pubic hair between Colette's legs, not belonging to Jeff MacDonald or any known source, was identified via DNA tests.
A blue acrylic fiber found in Colette's right hand could not be sourced to the fabrics and clothing in the MacDonald home. Another blue acrylic fiber was found where Jeffrey MacDonald said he lay unconscious. ...

Suppressed Evidence on the Bodies of Kimberley and Kristen

A brown hair, with root intact, was found under Kimberley's bloody fingernail. This hair was found not be Jeffrey MacDonald's. It remains a foreign hair in the hand of a murder victim, and was unreported. ...
A bloody hair, root intact, under the nail of 2 year old Kristen was not presented at trial and only disclosed via DNA testing- it remains unsourced. ...

Additional Suppressed Evidence

Blonde, synthetic wig hairs, 22 inches in length, were found in a clear-handled hair brush on a table near the living room where MacDonald said he saw the blonde female and near the phone, which Helena Stoeckley said she answered. These wig hairs would have been critical to MacDonald's defense. Army investigator William Ivory knew Helena Stoeckley wore a blonde wig, which matched the descriptions given by MacDonald and MP Kenneth Mica, but didn't reveal the presence of these long blonde wig hairs at the crime scene. ...

A bloody, adult palm print was found on the footboard of the master bed on the morning of the murders, near Colette MacDonald's body. The print did not match palm prints of either Jeffrey or Colette MacDonald, nor could it be matched to palm prints from persons known to have been at the crime scene that morning. Despite extensive efforts by the FBI, the source of this bloody palm print remains unidentified. ...

Corroborated here in a MacDonald-is-guilty site:
As expected, there remain hairs with DNA sequences that do not match any of the victims, Jeffrey MacDonald, or any now-deceased “hippies.” However, any residence such as the MacDonald apartment would be expected to contain hairs from persons other than the four people who lived there. Evidence presented to the jury in the 1979 trial included numerous unmatched fingerprints, hairs, fibers, and candle wax remains.

Despite his portrayal in "Fatal Vision," a new book contends he was wrongly convicted of murdering his wife and children
In all, Bost and Potter describe in detail 21 items of physical evidence never presented in MacDonald's defense that clearly point to the presence of others. Among them: a bloody syringe and an unidentified piece of skin under Colette's fingernail that was extensively tested and subsequently disappeared when it did not match MacDonald's.

So, with 28 years following the case, whose bloody palm print was that?
 
....But police errors do not necessarily mean a suspect is innocent. It is important to look at the facts of the case as well as how the investigation was handled.
I am definitely not saying police errors mean the suspect was innocent. I don't claim to know about this case, other than the basics and Morris' talk about his book.

But it wasn't hard to find evidence reported that does not fit the scenario MacDonald was convicted on.
 
Myths

"In MacDonald's case, the police made many classic mistakes. They ran roughshod over the crime scene. They failed to investigate alternative suspects thoroughly once they decided MacDonald was guilty."

CHARLIE: The CID didn't run roughshod over the crime scene. That is a myth created by the MacDonald camp.

The potential suspects in this case were investigated thoroughly. How thorough were the CID and FBI? Here you go.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com/html/suspects.html
 
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Open And Shut

SG: For someone who knows next to nothing about this case, you certainly feel comfortable cuddling up to MacDonald camp propaganda. There is a reason why MacDonald has spent 32 of the past 34 years in prison. The CID, FBI, DOJ, Joe McGinniss, Robert Sam Anson, Gene Weingarten, and many others certainly don't have the critical thinking skills of Book Forum critics, but they don't ignore the SOURCED evidence in this case. Hate to break it to the Book Forum critics, but ALL of the SOURCED evidence in this case points to Jeffrey MacDonald as the lone perp.

In terms of taking the suppressed evidence claims at face value, the problem is that the appellate courts ruled that the government didn't suppress evidence in this case. Almost everything in your post contains issues that have been previously litigated and the defense has lost every single time. This is what the MacDonald camp does. They continue to put forth claims that have been debunked by the government and have been shot down by the appellate courts. Morris and his fellow camp members seem to feel that if you repeat something enough times, it will magically gain credibility.

In terms of the defense claims, well...

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com/html/defense_claims.html
 
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...The whole world works that way in case you hadn't noticed...

Well, one might not notice if *their* whole world revolves around the Macdonald case. Jeffrey Macdonald is quite a charismatic figure. So we can't be surprised he generates both obsessed groupies like Henri, as well as fanatical haters like JTF who are jealous of the enduring interest he attracts. This sort of case seems to fill a void for a certain sort of person who otherwise have no real connection to the people who's lives were directly affected by it.

And you couldn't be more right about there being some tangible level of uncertainty in this case. Not that this particular fact is any longer within the grasp of those who need the truth to be whatever it is they need it to be.
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I Heard That MacDonald Is A Top Notch Toilet Cleaner

"So we can't be surprised he generates both obsessed groupies like Henri, as well as fanatical haters like JTF who are jealous of the enduring interest he attracts."

LANE: Methinks you have a crush on the Ice Pick Baby Killer.

"This sort of case seems to fill a void for a certain sort of person who otherwise have no real connection to the people who's lives were directly affected by it."

LANE: The only void is in your armchair psychoanalysis. My life is very full, but I do derive enjoyment from responding to those who post half-truths, assumptions, innuendo, and b.s. about this case.

"And you couldn't be more right about there being some tangible level of uncertainty in this case."

LANE: Really? Jeez, I thought the Randi forum prided itself on members who adhere to critical thought? Let me guess, a big fan of conspiracies? It's important to note that MacDonald advocates believe that the CID and FBI conspired to railroad the former Golden Boy.

"Not that this particular fact is any longer within the grasp of those who need the truth to be whatever it is they need it to be."

LANE: Whatever they need it to be? Listen, Carl Rogers, the truth is simple in this case. Jeffrey MacDonald murdered his pregnant wife and two young daughters. The evidence of his guilt is overwhelmming. He is a coward, a serial liar, and a psychopath.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
 
I am definitely not saying police errors mean the suspect was innocent. I don't claim to know about this case, other than the basics and Morris' talk about his book.

But it wasn't hard to find evidence reported that does not fit the scenario MacDonald was convicted on.

What evidence are you referring to? Perhaps I can shed some light.
 
You got that right. Or did you?

...Gene Weingarten...don't have the critical thinking skills of Book Forum critics...

Forgive me if I detect some sarcasm there, and you are, in fact, actually endorsing his "critical thinking skills".

Well, Gene Weingarten has said he immediately *knew* Macdonald was guilty as soon as he heard Macdonald give his version of what happened.

How? Macdonald claimed the alleged intruders were "hippies" and were heard to say "acid is groovy". From this, Weingarten, being the omnipotent linguist that he apparently understood himself to be, just *knew* that no self-respecting hippie would have used the word "groovy" at that time. And therefore Macdonald must be lying. And therefore must be guilty of murder.

I would hope I don't need to explain to anyone how unsatisfactory this kind of "critical thinking" and/or "reasoning" is. And how suspect the conclusions of those practising, or endorsing it, are.
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Timeline

Speaking of scenarios, the biggest problem facing those who advocate for MacDonald is using the evidence collected at the crime scene to create a murder timeline involving SIX hippie home invaders. The Army had no problem creating a timeline at the Article 32 hearings, Paul Stombaugh had no problem creating a timeline at the Grand Jury hearings, and the DOJ has had no problem creating a timeline.

I first posed the challenge to MacDonald advocates to create a timeline in 2005, but after 8 years, no takers. I can empathize because I attempted to do so in 2006, and failed miserably. It was a classic case of one step forward, two steps back. The evidence simply doesn't back his ridiculous home invader tale.

Creating a timeline that demonstrates his undeniable guilt, however, is easy pickins.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com/html/timeline.html
 
Mythical Tale

"Forgive me if I detect some sarcasm there, and you are, in fact, actually endorsing his "critical thinking skills"."

LANE: Yeah, my Irish sarcasm came rushing out in that sentence. I'm of the opinion that CID investigators, FBI investigators, DOJ lawyers, Joe McGinniss, Robert Sam Anson, and Gene Weingarten have relied on their critical thinking skills to come to the only salient conclusion in this case.

"Well, Gene Weingarten has said he immediately *knew* Macdonald was guilty as soon as he heard Macdonald give his version of what happened."

LANE: In fairness to Gene, my father actually watched MacDonald's appearance on the Dick Cavett show and he immediately "knew" that MacDonald was guilty. My father was a highly intelligent individual who didn't believe MacDonald's story when he first heard it during a news segment with Walter Cronkite. MacDonald's awful performance on the Cavett show was icing on the cake. Back in 1994, I was discussing the case with my father and he stated, "There is no way that a band of drug crazed intruders would slaughter a pregnant woman and two children, and leave him alive. No way."

"How? Macdonald claimed the alleged intruders were "hippies" and were heard to say "acid is groovy". From this, Weingarten, being the omnipotent linguist that he apparently understood himself to be",

LANE: Did you read Weingarten's article on Brian Murtagh? That was one of the best articles ever written on the MacDonald case and Gene did a follow up Live Chat on his Washington Post blog. In that chat, Gene demonstrated more knowledge about this case than Errol Morris ever has or ever will.

"I would hope I don't need to explain to anyone how unsatisfactory this kind of "critical thinking" and/or "reasoning" is."

LANE: I'm curious, do you find MacDonald's home invader tale to be reasonable? Remember what we're talking about here. A pregnant woman and two small children are overkilled. The focus of this home invasion, however, receives only ONE severe stab wound and his vital signs are normal upon his arrival at the Womack ER. Ten people in a cramped apartment, yet the only SOURCED evidentiary items point to Jeffrey MacDonald as the perp. In addition, neighbors living in the same building only hear a thud, Colette's raised voice, and Jeffrey MacDonald either laughing or crying. What does your critical thinking skills tell you about that story?

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
 
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Have you seen the CSPAN Book TV 1.5 hour talk by Morris and Epstein about the issue of police following a narrative they started with despite any further evidence before deciding only your own path to the 'facts' is valid?

So...watching a 1.5 hour talk is a just as valid path to the facts of the Macdonald as reading Fatal Vision, Final Vision, Fatal Justice, and A Wilderness of Error?

M-kay. :rolleyes:

Do you know what an ad hom argument is?

Yes.

Now, I'm simply going to sit back and watch you make an ass of yourself.
 
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"In MacDonald's case, the police made many classic mistakes. They ran roughshod over the crime scene. They failed to investigate alternative suspects thoroughly once they decided MacDonald was guilty."

CHARLIE: The CID didn't run roughshod over the crime scene. That is a myth created by the MacDonald camp.

The potential suspects in this case were investigated thoroughly. How thorough were the CID and FBI? Here you go.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com/html/suspects.html

My source on this is Fatal Vision, not the "MacDonald camp." I hope the mods will indulge me in quoting at length from this book, in which McGinniss describes the 1970 Army proceedings, because it is important to the discussion and it's not something I can link.

Behind the closed doors, Bernie Segal was discovering— to his amazement and to his client’s delight— just how confused, disorganized, and riddled with procedural error the Army’s case against MacDonald really was. Segal’s vigorous and exhaustive cross-examination of prosecution witnesses unearthed a series of investigative blunders far more extensive and significant than he would have ever dared hope.

From the earliest moments at the crime scene, when the military police sergeant had picked up the dangling telephone, to the later laboratory ineptitude which had resulted in the loss of the blue fiber from beneath Kristen’s fingernail and the piece of skin from beneath the fingernail of Colette, the Army had been, as Franz Joseph Grebner had known since February, grossly incompetent.

It turned out, for example, that the flowerpot whose upright position had so aroused Grebner’s suspicions had actually been set aright by an ambulance driver who had ignored all instructions to leave the crime scene untouched. The same driver, according to the testimony of a military policeman who had observed him, had managed to steal Jeffrey MacDonald’s wallet from a desk— all while the crime scene supposedly was being preserved.

The doctor who had been called to 544 Castle Drive to pronounce death testified that he had rolled Colette MacDonald onto her side in order to check for wounds in her back, and that in so doing he had removed the blue pajama top from her chest. He said he did not remember where he had placed it, but would not rule out the possibility that fibers from it might have fallen within the body outline on the floor.

The pathologists who had performed the autopsies had neglected to take either fingerprints or hair samples from the bodies, and, when a laboratory technician was later dispatched to the funeral home for the purpose of obtaining fingerprints, he found Kimberly and Kristen, already embalmed, “looking like two little angels lying there,” and he could not bring himself to disturb them further. Thus, the children’s fingerprints were never obtained, leaving many more “unidentified” fingerprints on the premises than might otherwise have been the case.

The CID had not realized that hair samples were lacking until after the bodies were buried. For “known hair samples” to match against the blond hair found in the palm of Colette’s hand, the CID chemist was forced to rely upon hairs taken from her coat collar, not from her head. The efficacy of this procedure was severely undermined when it was determined— much to the prosecution’s chagrin— that a “known hair sample” obtained from a sweatshirt of Jeffrey MacDonald turned out to be not his hair at all, but a strand of hair from his pony.

Each day’s testimony— even during the prosecution’s portion of the case— seemed to produce less evidence linking MacDonald to the crimes than it did new examples of CID bungling. The discarded pajama bottoms, the emptied garbage, the flushed toilets, the destroyed footprint which, superficially at least, had appeared to match a test print taken of the left foot of Jeffrey MacDonald— the string of errors would have been highly comical had their consequences not been so serious.

Segal learned, for example, that following Ron Harrison’s February 19 press conference, investigators and technicians alike had rushed to read the Esquire magazine found in the MacDonald living room. By the time the blood smear across the top of the pages was finally noticed and the magazine dusted for fingerprints, the only ones found were those of CID personnel and military policemen.

Back at Fort Gordon, when the fingerprint technician developed the film on which he had photographed prints found inside the apartment, he discovered that more than fifty of the pictures were so blurred as to be useless. Perhaps, he theorized, trucks passing by or firing from a nearby artillery range had caused his camera to vibrate. Whatever the cause, when he returned to 544 Castle Drive to rephotograph the prints in question, he found that moisture had penetrated the protective tape he had placed over them and that more than forty had been obliterated and would thus remain forever unidentified— markedly decreasing the certainty with which the prosecution could claim that there was no evidence of intruders inside 544 Castle Drive.

As the toll of blunders mounted, Bernie Segal suggested ever more pointedly to the hearing officer, Colonel Rock, that irreparable damage had obviously been done to the crime scene and that this damage had rendered useless— indeed, had thrust into the realm of wild conjecture— any inferences which might otherwise have been drawn from the so-called physical evidence.

In his account of the hearing, McGinniss also summarizes the testimony of Army detective William Ivory, which revealed that his investigation of Helen Stoeckley was perfunctory and less than professional.

The investigative errors in this case are significant. They created a fog of uncertainty that allowed MacDonald to evade justice in 1970, and they have provided ample grounds for him and his supporters to manipulate the public ever since.
 
Balancing Fact And Fiction

"In his account of the hearing, McGinniss also summarizes the testimony of Army detective William Ivory, which revealed that his investigation of Helen Stoeckley was perfunctory and less than professional."

CHARLIE: I admire McGinniss for presenting this case in a balanced manner and I believe that Fatal Vision is the greatest true crime book ever written. Having said that, Joe is not perfect, and he made some mistakes in regards to the errors made by the CID in their original investigation. For example, he states that over 40 fingerprints were accidentally destroyed by Hilyard Medlin, but the documented record says otherwise. The fact is that 17-20 prints of value were accidentally destroyed due to a number of factors.

A little shout out for William Ivory. Despite all the crap thrown his way by the MacDonald camp, Ivory was an outstanding investigator whose sterling career resulted in Ivory being inducted into the CID Hall of Fame in 2007. Ivory was as professional as ever when testifying at the 2012 evidentiary hearing.

In terms of the investigation of potential intruder suspects, my link clearly demonstrates that ALL of the suspects in this case were thoroughly investigated by the CID, FBI, and by Fayetteville Reporters Pat Reese and Steve Huettel. There is no high profile murder case in history where potential suspects were more thoroughly investigated than the New York Four and the Stoeckley Seven.

"The investigative errors in this case are significant."

CHARLIE: True, but to be fair, circumstances made some of those mistakes unavoidable. It's important to note that MP's were responding to what they thought was a domestic situation. Once they entered the apartment, their priority wasn't crime scene preservation, but the preservation of life.

"They created a fog of uncertainty that allowed MacDonald to evade justice in 1970, and they have provided ample grounds for him and his supporters to manipulate the public ever since."

CHARLIE: Nobody can manipulate the uninformed quite like the MacDonald camp. IMO, the fog of uncertainty has more to do with the household debris found at the crime scene and Stoeckley's numerous confessions than the mistakes made in the original CID investigation.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
 
So...watching a 1.5 hour talk is a just as valid path to the facts of the Macdonald as reading Fatal Vision, Final Vision, Fatal Justice, and A Wilderness of Error?
My comments are about the things Morris discussed in his book, false beliefs and how the prosecutors and the public are influenced by certain narratives.

So yes, I have commented after watching the author discuss his work and haven't read the book itself.

Apparently you think somewhere I've posted that I know all the details of the MacDonald case and have come to a conclusion which you don't agree with about his guilt or innocence.

That's interesting since I have no such opinion and have not posted that I have.

I did post that the case is not as clear cut as is being claimed and I cited specific evidence that clouded the case. Of course after quoting very specific evidentiary issues, KatieG asked me to cite the very thing I had just cited. :rolleyes:



If you know what an ad hom argument is, then you must know that is the argument you are using.
 
Further Proof Of Guilt

"I did post that the case is not as clear cut as is being claimed and I cited specific evidence that clouded the case. Of course after quoting very specific evidentiary issues"

SG: Speaking of those evidentiary issues, did you get a chance to read the link I provided to you? If not, it is important to point out that with the exception of the Britt/DNA claims, ALL of those evidentiary issues have been addressed by the appellate courts. The appellate courts have stated that this evidence is "specious" and "lacks merit." So, from a legal standpoint, one could argue that no such cloud exists in this case.

The Britt/DNA claims were covered at the September evidentiary hearing and the government proved beyond all doubt that the exculpatory arguments put forth by the defense are worthless. The following is a link to the closing arguments at that hearing. You'll quickly notice how thorough the government was in proving that Britt was a serial liar and that the DNA test results are further proof of MacDonald's guilt.

http://www.crimearchives.net/1979_m...-25_dpc331_EDNC_hearing_corrected_closing.pdf
 
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Apparently you think somewhere I've posted that I know all the details of the MacDonald case and have come to a conclusion which you don't agree with about his guilt or innocence.

No. As always, you take what people say and twist it into something it isn't. It's dishonest and tiresome. I'm out.
 
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And here we have someone who refuses to use the quote function because he's "always" done it his own way. Charles Norrie was banned for that (well, for getting abusive with the mods when they tried to get him to see the error of his ways, anyway).

I'm out too.

Rolfe.
 
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