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Jack Chick say the Catholics caused the holocost

Yeah, I screwed up the quote and was too late to edit. It should have been a "phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range", which Arnie tries to buy in the gunshop scene in the original Terminator.
I remembered the quote, it's just never made much sense to me. 40 Joules per second of energy isn't a lot compared to even an assault rifle round with 1600J....
Anyway this is getting off topic.
 
I thought it was fairly well-established that the Catholic Church played along with the Axis not so much to do anything to Jews but to try to gain advantage over the other forms of Christianity in those countries. I remember reading that rather a lot of bad things went down in Yugoslavia-- Catholic priests present at Ustase slaughters of Greek Orthodox, etc. I'm sure the Church's various dalliances with the Nazis didn't help the Jews any, but I suspect their motives were more about their own advantage than particular interest in hurting the Jews.

It's rather a trite observation, but history has shown that there is nobody the devout would rather slaughter than their own co-religionists who have different interpretations of the faith.
But don't you think the centuries of Catholic persecution of Jews laid the groundwork for the Nazi persecution of Jews? Would the Holocaust have happened if the Catholic Church never existed? It seems to me that the Vatican practically invented anti-semitism.
 
But don't you think the centuries of Catholic persecution of Jews laid the groundwork for the Nazi persecution of Jews? Would the Holocaust have happened if the Catholic Church never existed? It seems to me that the Vatican practically invented anti-semitism.

I don't see Christian anti-semitism as solely a Catholic thing, no. Protestants were just as hostile to the Jews. Didn't Martin Luther write some pretty horrible things? The Catholic Church only stands out because it's been around longer, not because it's more anti-semitic than the other denominations.

Anyway, I would say the Nazis were persecuting the Jews more on the ethnic component than the religious one. The Jews (among other groups) were "the other", used as scapegoats and meant to rally the "true Germans" to work together to build their stupid empire. If every Jew in Europe had converted to Christianity would the Nazis have spared them? The Nazis were obsessed with blood, not belief.

None of which means the Catholic Church wasn't anti-semitic, of course. But I don't think they invented it-- people usually mistrust "the other" in their midst, and it's sometimes in the interests of those in power to encourage that. As for what might have happened if the Catholic Church never existed, I don't really find much interest in playing "what if" with history. If not Catholicism, then what? Coptic Christianity instead? Greek Orthodoxy, with patriarchs in Constantinople colluding with the Nazis? Mithraism?
 
I don't see Christian anti-semitism as solely a Catholic thing, no. Protestants were just as hostile to the Jews. Didn't Martin Luther write some pretty horrible things? The Catholic Church only stands out because it's been around longer, not because it's more anti-semitic than the other denominations.

Anyway, I would say the Nazis were persecuting the Jews more on the ethnic component than the religious one. The Jews (among other groups) were "the other", used as scapegoats and meant to rally the "true Germans" to work together to build their stupid empire. If every Jew in Europe had converted to Christianity would the Nazis have spared them? The Nazis were obsessed with blood, not belief.

None of which means the Catholic Church wasn't anti-semitic, of course. But I don't think they invented it-- people usually mistrust "the other" in their midst, and it's sometimes in the interests of those in power to encourage that. As for what might have happened if the Catholic Church never existed, I don't really find much interest in playing "what if" with history. If not Catholicism, then what? Coptic Christianity instead? Greek Orthodoxy, with patriarchs in Constantinople colluding with the Nazis? Mithraism?
By definition, Catholicism preceded the Protestant movement. The Catholic Church existed for 1500 years before Luther nailed his manifesto to the church door. And they were persecuting Jews for at least 1,000 years before Luther. Protestants just took the ball the Vatican handed them.

So yes, I think I'm justified in saying that the Vatican invented anti-semitism.
 
By definition, Catholicism preceded the Protestant movement. The Catholic Church existed for 1500 years before Luther nailed his manifesto to the church door. And they were persecuting Jews for at least 1,000 years before Luther. Protestants just took the ball the Vatican handed them.

So yes, I think I'm justified in saying that the Vatican invented anti-semitism.

I think you're taking a too simplistic view of a historical phenomenon. Anti-semitism isn't solely (or even mostly) about religion, then or now. And the persecutions and pogroms occurred because the governments --the kings, the burgers, what have you-- had an interest in having them. The Church didn't stop them, may even have welcomed them, but it certainly wasn't the only guilty party. The slaughters in Poland--were those because of the pope and bishops, or because of the nobility? The expulsions from England and Spain--was that the Church, or the royalty doing that? It takes two to tango, and laying the blame solely on the Catholic Church is excusing the centuries of oppression and persecution handed out by everybody else.
 
Anyway, I would say the Nazis were persecuting the Jews more on the ethnic component than the religious one.
I highly recommend you read Constantine's Sword, which is a very detailed and engaging account of European antisemitism from the Roman conquest of Judea through the Holocaust.

You really cannot separate the ethnic and religious components of antisemitism. The Nazis played on the religious basis for antisemitism for their political gains. And for much of history the ethnicity and religion of the Jews was interchangeable.

In fact, the European concept of Jews as an ethnicity and not a religion really began as an offshoot of the Catholic Inquisition, where even after Jews were forcibly converted, the idea sprang up that the conversos were still secret or Cryptojews worthy of persecution and that their sin of killing Christ almost became a second original sin that applied only to them.

So in the 1500's, this sort of idea developed that Jews were always different, even if they tried to assimilate. At the same time as this idea was developing, Jews were fleeing Spain into Germany and Eastern Europe.

And this was exactly the time that Luther was writing. Luther at first reached out to the Jews, thinking that the only reason Jews hadn't converted was because of their treatment by the Church. So he felt tolerance would lead to conversion. But, when the result was merely that Jews flocked to Germany because it was tolerant, but did not convert, Luther decided to jump back on the antisemitism bandwagon and in 1543 wrote "On the Jews and Their Lies" which, while certainly more openly venomous in its antisemitism, represented more or a return to traditional Catholic antisemitism.

His attitudes -- fueled by religion -- seeped into the German consciousness and helped create Nazi antisemitism, and then got wrapped up in Nazi racial theories.

In short, you can't separate the ethnic and religious components of Nazi antisemitism. They proceeded in a straight evolutionary line.

If every Jew in Europe had converted to Christianity would the Nazis have spared them? The Nazis were obsessed with blood, not belief.
Except that's no different than the conduct of the Church, who continued to persecute conversos even after they converted. By the 1930's religious antiemitism already had a racial component ingrained within it for more than four centuries.

None of which means the Catholic Church wasn't anti-semitic, of course. But I don't think they invented it
They didn't. They inherited it from pagan Rome. And in that sense, one could say that Catholic antisemitism was at its heart ethnic in basis -- in that the Romans hated Jews because of their obstinant refusal to accept Roman rule over Judea, rather than any religious disagreement (although there were those too). The Church simply took pre-existing Roman hatred of Jews and gave it a religious justification. And then the Nazis took Christian antisemitism and gave it a racialist justification.

The Nazis didn't create antisemitism either. But they inherited it from the Lutherans, who got it from the Catholics, who got it from the pre-Christian Romans. Each step in the chain added to the antisemitism, making it uniquely theirs, by building on the foundation set by the antisemites who preceded them.
 
The Nazis didn't create antisemitism either. But they inherited it from the Lutherans, who got it from the Catholics, who got it from the pre-Christian Romans. Each step in the chain added to the antisemitism, making it uniquely theirs, by building on the foundation set by the antisemites who preceded them.

Which means anti-semitism is unique only that it survived so long, not because it was peculiar in origin. What tribes in the ancient world didn't hate their neighbors? That the hatred of this particular tribe managed to survive and descend through the ages through different civilizations is just an unhappy concatenation of unfavorable circumstances. Like one religion being (for a time) against the practice of usury, or a government here or there needing scapegoats for something.

eta: or, what I think is the biggest reason of all, being a visibly different minority with different customs and no apparent interest in assimilating to the majority's ways.
 
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Which means anti-semitism is unique only that it survived so long, not because it was peculiar in origin.
That's a chicken and egg problem. Is antisemitism unique because it survived so long, or did it survive so long because of its unique qualities?

Yes, antisemitism is a subset of xenphobia. So what?

This thread derail started when you wrote that "I suspect their [the Church's] motives were more about their own advantage than particular interest in hurting the Jews."

Wildcat appropriately pointed out that the Church had a long history of antisemitism throughout its history. How is it a response to say that the Church's antisemitism is really a subset of xenophobia?

The Church had problems with antisemitism in the 1940's. It wasn't universal, and some priests tried to save Jews even as others were turning them over to the Nazis. But to the extent that the Church was willing to look the other way as Jews were being rounded up was motivated in part by their interest in hurting Jews.

Again it would be very difficult to separate out the Church's "own advantage" from "their interest in hurting Jews" because many priests saw "hurting Jews" as being in the Church's advantage.

I think is the biggest reason of all, being a visibly different minority with different customs and no apparent interest in assimilating to the majority's ways.
Well, duh. That's what xenophobia is: hatred of people who are different. That's no different than saying "I think the root cause of racism in America is a hatred of other races."
 
This thread derail started when you wrote that "I suspect their [the Church's] motives were more about their own advantage than particular interest in hurting the Jews."

Wildcat appropriately pointed out that the Church had a long history of antisemitism throughout its history.

Wildcat suggested the Catholic Church "practically invented anti-semitism" and was thus directly responsible for the Holocaust. I just suggested this wasn't an accurate statement, thus the "derail" began. I guess I should apologize for disagreeing, and posting?

That's a chicken and egg problem. Is antisemitism unique because it survived so long, or did it survive so long because of its unique qualities?

Yes, antisemitism is a subset of xenphobia. So what?

How is it a response to say that the Church's antisemitism is really a subset of xenophobia?

Well, duh. That's what xenophobia is: hatred of people who are different. That's no different than saying "I think the root cause of racism in America is a hatred of other races."

Well, sorry for saying things you think are obvious. I don't see how I can answer any of these questions without further the "derailing" you accused me of. I'll just concede the Catholic Church invented anti-semitism, that it was the popes who personally slaughtered Jews in Renaissance pogroms, and that the Nazis acted against the Jews because of their devotion to Roman Catholicism. Will that work for everybody?
 
I don't think the current debate is a derail; rather it's perfectly in line with the substance of the OP and the Chick tract under review.

And IMO each of the three of the participants -- TM, MM and WC -- are making excellent points which do not necessarily contradict each other. Taken as a whole, it looks to me like this is a very productive and on-topic debate.
 
Well, sorry for saying things you think are obvious. I don't see how I can answer any of these questions without further the "derailing" you accused me of. I'll just concede the Catholic Church invented anti-semitism, that it was the popes who personally slaughtered Jews in Renaissance pogroms, and that the Nazis acted against the Jews because of their devotion to Roman Catholicism. Will that work for everybody?

Not for me. While the RCC has been guilty of anti-everybody-but-us-ism throughout history, there isn’t a religious group that was around at that time, with power to wield, who didn’t follow the same course. The Muslims certainly did their fair share of slaughtering Jews and Christians. When the Reformation hit, it was my-brand-of-woo-is-more-truthy-than-yours! But religion is a cop-out when it comes to wholesale slaughter of innocents (i.e. those who didn’t sign up/were drafted for the army).

Hitler had it in for more than just the Jews. Anyone deemed undesirable also went into the camps, so homosexuals, Catholics, Russians, disabled, Jehovah’s Witness, Romani, etc. So it’s not enough to say that Nazi Germany relied on anti-Semitism to fuel the Holocaust, but rather that anti-Semitism played a role in allowing Hitler’s Final Solution to take place. Once he had the ball rolling, and anyone else in power, could see to it that anyone they wanted went straight to the camps.

Blaming the RCC for this just doesn't wash.
 
Those poor Nazis! The Catholic church really tricked them!

Oh well, at least the old Jewish guy got converted at the end. That's the important thing. :D
 
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Wildcat suggested the Catholic Church "practically invented anti-semitism" and was thus directly responsible for the Holocaust. I just suggested this wasn't an accurate statement, thus the "derail" began. I guess I should apologize for disagreeing, and posting?

Well, sorry for saying things you think are obvious. I don't see how I can answer any of these questions without further the "derailing" you accused me of. I'll just concede the Catholic Church invented anti-semitism, that it was the popes who personally slaughtered Jews in Renaissance pogroms, and that the Nazis acted against the Jews because of their devotion to Roman Catholicism. Will that work for everybody?

Ease up on the passive aggressiveness.

Wildcat is not incorrect, depending on what you mean by "practically".

Let's define one's terms. Xenophobia is a fear of strangers of any stripe. Prior to Roman times, any hatred of Jews seemed to be run of the mill xenophobia. Assyrians, Chaldeans, Babylonians, et al. hated Israelites not because of anything unique to their practice of Judaism or their ethnicity, but merely because they weren't Assyrians, Chaldeans, Babylonians, etc.

That changed with Rome. Romans hated Judeans with a special vigor. Partly it was because they refused to accept Roman practices that involved the veneration of Roman gods. Partly because the Jews -- even though they were conquered -- refused to acknolwedge Roman superiority in any way. In fact, they often declared that the Roman conquest was a product of the Jews' own God, punishing the Israelites' own iniquities. In addition, Roman and Jewish customs were often incompatible. Romans sealed friendships and alliances over meals. Jews would not eat Roman un-kosher meals.

But Roman antisemitism was basically frustration that Jews didn't act like a conquered people at all. They wouldn't acknowledge the greatness of Rome. They wouldn't even acknowledge that Rome's conquest of Judea was even evidence that Rome was militarily superior. Roman antisemitism was a hatred that a conquered people got all uppity. If you spoke to Romans, you might not even recognize their attitude as antisemitic as we would understand it. It was more the attitude of a conquerer frustrated and bewildered at how rebellious and egoistic Judeans were.

When the Empire Chirstianitized in the 4th century, the Church adopted Roman attitudes -- being as they were now comprised mostly of Romans -- including the Roman attitude of antisemitism. But now Jews were not merely a stubborn people -- they were the killers of Christ. They were devious. They were devoted to their Law, not the Lord. They had seen the miracles of Christ and rejected Him, even murdered Him. Whereas antisemitism had been mostly political, with only subtle undertones of religion, antisemitism was now primarily religious in nature.

Everything we know of antisemitism -- that Jews are greedy, that they are untrustworthy, that they engage in bizarre religious rituals, that they are in a secret league to conquer the world for nefarious purpose -- was invented by the Church. If antisemitism today were still as it was in the Roman era, it would be described as anti-Zionist because Roman antimsemitism was simply a hatred of the Jews because they wanted their own nation-state. So in that sense, Wildcat correctly stated that the Church practically invented anti-semitism.

Now, the Church had a good 1500 years to work at this before the Nazis put their own spin on it. But almost everything the Nazis added to antisemitism were rooted in antisemitism developed by the Church (and adopted by Luther), just with the religious trappings replaced with nationalist ones. Jews ceased to be in league with the devil and instead were part of a global banking conspiracy. Jews were not apostates living among us -- they were foreigners living among us. Jews were not to blame for plague -- they were to blame for the Depression.
 
They didn't. They inherited it from pagan Rome. And in that sense, one could say that Catholic antisemitism was at its heart ethnic in basis -- in that the Romans hated Jews because of their obstinant refusal to accept Roman rule over Judea, rather than any religious disagreement (although there were those too).
I'm not so sure about that. I don't think the Romans had any more or less antagonism towards Jews than for any other people they conquered. In fact, they were pretty tolerant of other religions, until Christianity came around. And that was because Christians pledged fealty to Lord Jesus rather than to Rome, it was more political to them than religious. Until Constantine converted of course.

Christians, OTOH, sure as hell hated Jews, they killed Jesus after all and rejected him as the Messiah.

The Nazis idolized the Christian Roman Empire, you'll note that many of their symbols (such as the eagle) were copied directly from the Romans. Prior to the Nazi era the "Nazi salute" was called the Roman salute, the Nazis copied it and pretty much ruined it for all time. And there was a lot of Christian mysticism intertwined with Nazi ideology, and they actively sought out Holy Roman Christian relics.
 
That changed with Rome. Romans hated Judeans with a special vigor. Partly it was because they refused to accept Roman practices that involved the veneration of Roman gods.
One of those gods being the emperor himself. :)

Partly because the Jews -- even though they were conquered -- refused to acknolwedge Roman superiority in any way. In fact, they often declared that the Roman conquest was a product of the Jews' own God, punishing the Israelites' own iniquities. In addition, Roman and Jewish customs were often incompatible. Romans sealed friendships and alliances over meals. Jews would not eat Roman un-kosher meals.
Another factor that contributed to Roman antisemitism is that Jews tended to live in a single neighbourhood, out of the practical religious reason that they had to live in walking distance of the temple. This added to the feeling that Jews were "separate".

I'm not so sure about that. I don't think the Romans had any more or less antagonism towards Jews than for any other people they conquered. In fact, they were pretty tolerant of other religions, until Christianity came around. And that was because Christians pledged fealty to Lord Jesus rather than to Rome, it was more political to them than religious. Until Constantine converted of course.
But those other conquered peoples had no problem incorporating the Roman gods in their pantheon, or identifying their own gods with the Roman ones. Greek Ares is Mars. So is Gaulish Toutatis. The Jews had, obviously, a problem with that.

Christians, OTOH, sure as hell hated Jews, they killed Jesus after all and rejected him as the Messiah.
The Christians obviously wanted to distinguish themselves from the Jews. They started as a Jewish sect, but with a heavy (Pauline) emphasis on proselytizing among goyim. The core passage in the Gospels which is the basis for particularly RCC antisemitism is that the Jews chose that Jesus be crucified. This passage runs counter to anything we know about how the Romans ruled; Pilate nor any other governor would ever have given the choice to crucify or not to the people. This passage, as the earliest gospels, dates from around the time of the Jewish revolt. So it was convenient to shift the blame for Jesus' crucifixion from the Romans to the Jews, to distinguish themselves from an already loathed minority and prime enemy-du-jour, and make themselves acceptable to Roman would-be converts.

The Nazis idolized the Christian Roman Empire, you'll note that many of their symbols (such as the eagle) were copied directly from the Romans. Prior to the Nazi era the "Nazi salute" was called the Roman salute, the Nazis copied it and pretty much ruined it for all time. And there was a lot of Christian mysticism intertwined with Nazi ideology, and they actively sought out Holy Roman Christian relics.
It gets a bit confusing about which Empire you're speaking - the HRE in the last sentence? ;) I think you're seeking too much religious reasons behind this. The Nazis sought cool symbols. The eagle was not only a symbol of the (pagan) Roman Empire, the military superpower of its time, but also of Germany, both the Holy Roman Empire (aka the First Reich) and the Wilhelminian Empire (aka the Second Reich) and still of the FRG.
 
I don't think the Romans had any more or less antagonism towards Jews than for any other people they conquered.
Oh, they did. Read Constantine's Sword. Judeans were despised for many the same reasons Christians were. After all, it was pagan Rome who started the Diaspora, destroyed the Second Temple, and went on a century-long persecution that resulted in the death of more than a third of all Jews in the world.
In fact, they were pretty tolerant of other religions, until Christianity came around.
Don't listen to the Christian propaganda. Christians concentrate on their Roman persecution because that's where most of the first martyrs came from. But the Christians don't have a monopoly on Roman persecution.
 
Be careful if you google for that :D

(To derail a bit from the serious discussion going on, of which I have nothing to add to, and I figure this thread deserves a fair amount of humor)

I actually did Google this with images. The first item of the search was the "double facepalm" of Picard and Riker - actually, quite appropriate when dealing with Chick Tracks.

Other than the usual images you'd expect from such a search - I don't believe I need detail those - I found the following, all on the first - third pages:

- a collection of dice
- two lambs lying in a field
- Dr. Phil
- a happy face

Whatever bizarre connection these items have to hot lesbian DMs (except for the dice) I leave for an exercise for the students.
 

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