It's their CULTURE, you INSENSITIVE creature!

[fuelair]

http://www.indopedia.org/Female_circumcision.html
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/jc.htm
http://www.unfpa.org/gender/practices2.htm#18

first and third note religions whose members practice FGM. You will need to hunt a tiny bit (it took three minutes to find and verify useful info in each on www.dogpile.com ).

All have useful info. IM(NS)HO

 

[funk de fino]

Perhaps you missed the part where there have been no convictions under that law. That has everything to do with that link - unless you have an alternate reason that there have been NO CONVICTIONS. And, another reason I am as I am and write as I do when functional criminals get away with things like this. Completely (as evident from the NO CONVICTIONS part of the article).

BS, you are speculating.

 

[fuelair]

BS, you are speculating.

Did you actually read the article? I ask because I am speculating that you did not even glance at it. Why? Because the article specifically states within the first paragraphs: No prosecutions (old law), No convictions (new law). I did no speculation AND I actually read the article.

But, there will be a consolation prize in your stocking tonight: straight from Newcastle!!!

 

[BPScooter]

I'm struck by something I recently read in a general intent to understand religious things. The Christian protestant, at the time of fervor for their protest (16th century to start), was convinced of the relation between the deity and the individual, and the nature of the good works done by that individual, whilst recognizing the ultimate sovereignty of the Almighty to elect or damn. Yet those good works were unavoidably social in nature, and were oriented toward conversion or at least giving a fighting chance to the sinner.

These dynamics are really contradictory and inhere in other faiths. If the only way to meet the demands of the faith religion is to submit, be elected, burnt, sliced, tatooed, etc., and the evidence of that is ritual scars of some sort, well... I don't know what to say, really. I'd hope that the age of consent is considered, as well as the political environment in which the practice is attempted.

 

[luchog]

What about MGM? How do we stand on that?

While an unfortunate practice, it is increasingly common worldwide. As the risks to health or quality of life are typically very small, there isn't likely to be a substantial outcry anytime soon.

Thank you for that correction. Do you doubt this will come to pass? The law of supply and demand seems to be in operation here.

In the US, the practice is on the rise among immigrant communities, with individuals in those communities typically performing the procedure. Often these individuals have a rudimentary medical training, sometimes working as hospital technicians or nurse's assistants.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Perhaps you missed the part where there have been no convictions under that law. That has everything to do with that link - unless you have an alternate reason that there have been NO CONVICTIONS. And, another reason I am as I am and write as I do when functional criminals get away with things like this. Completely (as evident from the NO CONVICTIONS part of the article).

But how does one get a conviction?

Imagine yourself as the state prosecutor in such a case. You want to make sure that someone ends up doing hard time for this appalling act.

Whom will you call as witnesses?

 

[BPScooter]

Dr. Adequate, here's where the sacred and secular come face to face.

If I were sitting on a jury, and a case came up regarding FGM, I would be utterly revolted and probably prejudice the case. If someone said "well, the boy was *MGM* so it's all good, since it's the covenant of Abraham.. bla bla bla" I would object. I would probably whip my mutilated Johnson in court, to prove that all MGMs aren't created equal.

I think I saw that defense once, on Law and Order. Whip out the weener.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Dr. Adequate, here's where the sacred and secular come face to face.

If I were sitting on a jury, and a case came up regarding FGM, I would be utterly revolted and probably prejudice the case. If someone said "well, the boy was *MGM* so it's all good, since it's the covenant of Abraham.. bla bla bla" I would object. I would probably whip my mutilated Johnson in court, to prove that all MGMs aren't created equal.

I think I saw that defense once, on Law and Order. Whip out the weener.

Hmm ... you may have missed my point.

My point was this. Every witness but one who can testify to the crime is guilty of complicity in it, and so would keep their mouths shut.

The only exception is the victim. But she was only a few months old, and will not remember, and cannot testify.

Of course there is the physical evidence that at some point someone mutilated her. But how do we parlay this into a prosecution of some specific person for being culpable?

We're screwed. Dammit, we're screwed.

 

[funk de fino]

Did you actually read the article? I ask because I am speculating that you did not even glance at it. Why? Because the article specifically states within the first paragraphs: No prosecutions (old law), No convictions (new law). I did no speculation AND I actually read the article.

But, there will be a consolation prize in your stocking tonight: straight from Newcastle!!!

Yes, I did. Not with bias spectacles. There is nothing about "no convictions" being due to any reason. OP made it up.

Read it again and read the OP title.

 

[funk de fino]

While an unfortunate practice, it is increasingly common worldwide. As the risks to health or quality of life are typically very small, there isn't likely to be a substantial outcry anytime soon.

So this is not about principle for the OP? Just another thread to bash certain people.

Mutilation of children is mutilation.

 

[fuelair]

While an unfortunate practice, it is increasingly common worldwide. As the risks to health or quality of life are typically very small, there isn't likely to be a substantial outcry anytime soon.

In the US, the practice is on the rise among immigrant communities, with individuals in those communities typically performing the procedure. Often these individuals have a rudimentary medical training, sometimes working as hospital technicians or nurse's assistants.

No offense, but you have what, to me, is an interesting view of what risks to health and {especially} quality of life being small means. Possibly I have misinterpreted the material presented in the three sites I put in my post 101
in this thread. And, to reiterate:
http://www.indopedia.org/Female_circumcision.html
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/jc.htm
http://www.unfpa.org/gender/practices2.htm#18

 

[fuelair]

Also, I would hope any person working in the medical field in the US who assisted in any way in the procedure would be removed from any medical employment - and get jail time.

As to the education works thing - go right ahead with the education, I'm all for it. And jail and punish harshly those who do it. Never was against education on it, but...

 

[luchog]

No offense, but you have what, to me, is an interesting view of what risks to health and {especially} quality of life being small means. Possibly I have misinterpreted the material presented in the three sites I put in my post 101
in this thread. And, to reiterate:
http://www.indopedia.org/Female_circumcision.html
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/jc.htm
http://www.unfpa.org/gender/practices2.htm#18

Nice bit of selective editing there, making it look like I was saying something completely different than what I actually said. Completely obscures the fact that I was talking about two entirely different and unrelated things.

I expect a correction and apology.

 

[BPScooter]

For my part, I realize this is no laughing matter, and that I'm very poorly informed on the issue (but this thread is improving that situation), and my attempts at being humorous are often quite stupid. I need to learn to read threads and links more closely... so I'm apologizing for that.

 

[fuelair]

Nice bit of selective editing there, making it look like I was saying something completely different than what I actually said. Completely obscures the fact that I was talking about two entirely different and unrelated things.

I expect a correction and apology.

The only thing I note I got wrong is that (due to some people throwing in out-of-context male genital "mutilation" - which is mostly out of context because the dangers are present - but not nearly at the level of female same) and I did miss that the fdf you responded to was on the out-of-context/off-topic MGM rather than FGM. For that, I apologise. No selective editing that I am aware of as I quoted your responses exactly - which anyone reading the posts should be able to observe on their own. My error, again, was applying them to FGM - the thread topic.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Rabbis don't perform circumcisions.

He's right Soapysam, you're looking for mohel. I wonder if they start calling the preson who performs the procedure that...

I sit corrected. I had forgotten the correct term (I don't think "mohel" is the one I read before , but I'm hanged if I can recall what it was).

I was actually recalling an old Dave Allen joke about the two Jewish men in the toilet.
One looks over at the other's penis and says "Rabbi Cohen?"
"Yes, how did you know?"
"Cuts with a slant."


ETA- I do not consider cutting bits off small boys to be out of context to the thread.
My point is that cutting bits off children of either gender, before they are old enough to give permission, is a bad thing in general and should be treated by the law as assault.

I include tonsillectomy without medical need and ear piercing for earrings.
Cut the cord, hair and nails. Leave the rest alone, is my view.
You want more holes in your body? You want bits removed? Your call. When you are sixteen.
Nobody else's.

 

[luchog]

The only thing I note I got wrong is that (due to some people throwing in out-of-context male genital "mutilation" - which is mostly out of context because the dangers are present - but not nearly at the level of female same) and I did miss that the fdf you responded to was on the out-of-context/off-topic MGM rather than FGM. For that, I apologise. No selective editing that I am aware of as I quoted your responses exactly - which anyone reading the posts should be able to observe on their own. My error, again, was applying them to FGM - the thread topic.

Selective editing in that you removed the context, the material I quoted, which completely changed the meaning of my post.

The second section in the post you quoted was my commenting on the assertion that FGM practitioners need to import people to perform the mutilation; and minimizing the extent of the problem by ridiculing that notion. That is not the case in the US at least. As I noted, the practice is showing an increase among immigrant communitys, as there are plenty of individuals in those communities that work as some form of ancillary medical staff in local hospitals, and will perform the procedure. No need to import outside help. I said nothing at all about the health and quality of life issues involved, which should be obvious to anyone with even a passing knowledge of the practice of FGM.

My first paragraph was a rebuttal of the specious association of male circumcision with FMG. While I oppose the practice, the risks and quality of life issues of circumcision, by far the most common form of MGM in practice, are nowhere near analogous to the risks and quality of life issues of most common forms of FGM. The reasons for performing the procedures are also dramatically different in the majority of cases.

 

[I Ratant]

Also, I would hope any person working in the medical field in the US who assisted in any way in the procedure would be removed from any medical employment - and get jail time.

As to the education works thing - go right ahead with the education, I'm all for it. And jail and punish harshly those who do it. Never was against education on it, but...

.
MGM is commonly requested at birth, and performed, here in the US.

 

[fuelair]

.
MGM is commonly requested at birth, and performed, here in the US.

Once again, my comments have only been intended to refer to the FGM that is the OP topic. I missed that a couple were on MGM which is not the OP topic nor a health/q of life issue at anything approaching what is is for FGM and because it isn't the OP topic.

 

[BPScooter]

Well I'm glad we got that issue sorted out.