It's just a coincidence!!!

[Warge]

You would be shocked to see what a reader could tell from minute details and even even in the smallest body movements of you (reading body language which is very hard to hide). I'm sure Miss Anthrope could tell more since she was once in the business.

 

[Warge]

Speaking of numbers, I just watched Number 23, the Jim Carrey movie just released on DVD and I actually kind of enjoyed it. I don't really understand perfectly how to do a spoiler window yet, so I'll just be really careful not to ruin it for anyone. For anyone who hasn't seen the trailers or the film, it's about a man who gets a book for a birthday present re: #23 and he starts being cursed or haunted or whatever by the number. It starts appearing everywhere he looks... in his phone number, on signs, in dates and times.... eeeeeerrrrieee. More eerie than molasses on a sandwich, even.

I rented it expecting it to be a really woo thing, but it ended up being not so much about woo as it was about a Hollywood scriptwriter's intensely laborious plot machinations... and one big HUGE plot hole big enough to drive a Transformer through...Still, I liked it, all in all.

We were watching the movie in a hotel while I was on a business trip and I had to keep turning it up and down because the air conditioning unit was so damned loud and would intermittently turn on and off. Every time I turned it up, I intentionally stopped the volume setting on 23. After I did it a few times, my boyfriend said, "I know you're doing it on purpose, goofy. You might as well stop it."

So much for me trying to mystify him...

Why does he have to be so skeptical about everything?

So he can get a membership on JREF?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Speaking of numbers, I just watched Number 23, the Jim Carrey movie just released on DVD and I actually kind of enjoyed it. I don't really understand perfectly how to do a spoiler window yet, so I'll just be really careful not to ruin it for anyone. For anyone who hasn't seen the trailers or the film, it's about a man who gets a book for a birthday present re: #23 and he starts being cursed or haunted or whatever by the number. It starts appearing everywhere he looks... in his phone number, on signs, in dates and times.... eeeeeerrrrieee. More eerie than molasses on a sandwich, even.

I've never seen that movie, but I have used that same idea to show people what the confirmation bias means. I have them choose a number (usually a two digit number), and then tell them to watch for their special number to appear everywhere they look in the coming days and weeks.

You can use a 4 digit number, and the hits are less frequent, but much more impressive.

Again, it SEEMS counterintuitive that any particular two digit number should appear so often, but they all do all the time. There are numbers all around us all the time, so there are a LOT of chances for matching. If you forget the many thousands of misses, and focus on the hits (so that your special number is the foreground and all other numbers blur into the background), it looks magical. It's not. It's just following the law of really big numbers.

 

[oakster]

mmmnn!!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Oh yeah, the movie, "23" with Jim Carey just went to DVD. Think I'll rent it tomorrow. Could be a coincidence.

 

[ThatSoundAgain]

I think it was meant to be more of a joke. You're right, of the 12 "two" examples, 5 of them were just showing that 2 is the digital root of 11 (but 7 of them don't).

[...]

Nope, these things are entirely devoid of significance, and deserve to be dismissed.

Just to be clear: I agree completely that it's only worthy of dismissal, and appreciate your patience in writing up examples. The only gripe I have with Snopes' article is that in the rare instance that you talk to a CT with half a clue, 2 being the digital root of 11 is an easy dismissal they can use. That's a bit pedantic of me, I know, but I like your style of doing multiple 'lucky numbers' better. Well done.

At least in Kristianstad where you can see the monogram C4 all over the place


This is NOT a coincidence as he founded the town.

It might actually be there that I saw it. It was part of a tour of much of Skåne / Blekinge if I recall correctly, and it was some time ago. Do you think there's significance in that his monogram is ... C4?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

The only gripe I have with Snopes' article is that in the rare instance that you talk to a CT with half a clue, 2 being the digital root of 11 is an easy dismissal they can use. That's a bit pedantic of me, I know, but I like your style of doing multiple 'lucky numbers' better. Well done.

I get what you're saying, and I agree the Snopes article could've done better with their example--the essay is very good, though. (I like the skepdic essay example that shows plenty of stuff that doesn't come to 11.)
On the other hand, if I were arguing with someone on this point, I'd still emphasize that if you're adding digits together, it's completely arbitrary to stop at 11 and not make the 11 into a two. Here are three examples:

The date of the attack: 9/11 - 9 + 1 + 1 = 11

September 11th is the 254th day of the year: 2+5+4 = 11

119 is the area code to Iraq/Iran. 1 + 1 + 9 = 11

(BTW, the last one is a lie. The telephone country code for Iraq is 964 and Iran's is 98. Why would anyone think these two countries would share a code anyway?)

Aside from having reached the target number of 11, is there any reason to add these digits and then stop adding digits at that point?

(For that matter, is there any reason they don't include the year in adding up the date--except that it wouldn't come out to 11?)

 

[laalaa41]

Yeah, I feel pretty much the same way. I've been an atheist all my life but I find many religions very interesting, and I can appreciate the beauty of Christian art, music and not least architecture. I've always been interested in myth, legends and folklore. And no matter what one think about some of the manifestations of religion, its importance when it comes to culture and history, among other things can not be disputed. Importance in itself does not say if it was a good or a bad thing, for that matter, it just says it played an important part in certain given situations. I am also very interested in the way the mind works, and the psychology of the human being, and you can't study such things without also studying the delusions.

I think that a skeptic and/or an atheist who thinks you have to stay away from everything that has to do with any sort of woo, and don't read, study and learn about the many layers of it, is wrong. I think rather few skeptics think that though. Most skeptics I have met and talked to, are rather well read in things like different sorts of woo, myth and religion. Many skeptics are also fans of fantasy and science fiction. Most of us are perfectly willing to suspend belief for a while, while reading a good SF book or watching a fantasy film.

Many skeptics, including myself, also like art and objects that are sometimes, or often, connected with woo-practices. But objects are objects and can not have any woo-characteristics in themselves, it's given those attributes by people. What do I care if some nutty woo thinks there is healing powers in a crystal, if I think it's pretty and want it in my collection? Some skeptics collect Tarot cards, and so on...

There's nothing that says that as a skeptic and/or an atheist, one has to dissacociate oneself from anything in particular. I think that if you do, you are missing out on a lot of knowledge and understanding of the cultures and history of earth, and you are doing yourself a disservice. All skeptics are different as people anyway. And it's silly, and sad, if some would be ashamed or embarrassed to, for example, liking the art of tarot cards, just because some nuts think they can tell the future.

The difference lies in how you deal with different things. The skeptic and the woo might very well be interested in the same things, but the outlook they have, and the way they are nearing these things, and the way they understand them are totally different. It's a difference in thinking, I think, not necessarily a difference in interests or tastes. Though there might be huge differences in that too, of course.

And it is always important to remember that interest in - does NOT equal belief in!!

AbsolUTEly!

 

[Tumblehome]

I don't think 7 days is because of Christianity. The whole 7 days thing is from the old testament which is actually Jewish. No idea if the idea is originally Jewish or came from somewhere else first though.

I have no real knowledge about this, but it would not surprise me if the 7-day concept is even older. Since many stuff in the Old Testament was derived from legends and folklore already existing in those parts of the world.

The significance of the number seven probably goes way back, long before the Old Testament. I just read in a book on the cave paintings of Lascaux that some abstract symbols (dots and lines) occur frequently in groups of seven, often enough for archaeologists to surmise that the number seven had some significance even back then, about 17,000 years ago, though they don't have any ideas how that would come about.

 

[ThatSoundAgain]

On the other hand, if I were arguing with someone on this point, I'd still emphasize that if you're adding digits together, it's completely arbitrary to stop at 11 and not make the 11 into a two.

Agreed. Hunting for these numbers is pattern recognition coupled with arbitrary rules in a tight feedback loop. You can always argue that even if this were true, it would have no predictive power and thus no use.

 

[-Fran-]

I agree, though I don't think Rodney in particular is willing to learn about coincidence, confirmation bias, shoe-horning, and cherry picking.

A willingness to learn, doesn't seem to be one of Rodney's greatest features on the whole

 

[-Fran-]

Tjena!

Shu-bi-dua. Some of their quirkier stuff with a satirical bent is all right, but some of it (like this song) is awfully glurgy and populistic.

Nope, doesn't ring a bell.

All right, I'll stop now, but note that I once saw his monogram grown in a flower patch in (I think) Lund. So I guess some people in Skåne still like him.

Well, well, those Skåningar... They are still plotting with the Danes against the rest of Sweden I am sure of it

ETA: Jan Guillou apparently wrote a book containing some of the same criticism as the site above. That's news to me.

That's it! I didn't remember where I had heard that about Kristian IV and him enjoying tortured women, but now I remember. It was from Guillou! In a TV adaptation of that book on Swedish television.

 

[-Fran-]

A coincidence that I still haven't quite puzzled out:
A friend was running her life according to Madame Francesca and wanted me to see her too. I did so in order to convince her that Madame F was rubbish .

I just want to say that Madame Francesca and me are not one and the same! My predictions are never rubbish

(Fran is short for Francesca)

 

[laalaa41]

Is the opposite of synchronicity when absolutely nothing goes according to plan. When you really wish everything would flow and connect but quite the opposite happens? Have you had days like that?

 

[Warge]

Is the opposite of synchronicity when absolutely nothing goes according to plan. When you really wish everything would flow and connect but quite the opposite happens? Have you had days like that?

My LIFE is like that...

 

[Agent : Orange]

Hi all...

This is my first post on the JREF message boards. I just found this place yesterday and I immediately signed up. it's finally nice to see some rational, sane, like-minded folks posting on the internet.

I want to post a personal coincidence that happened to me that has a very special place in my heart. It starts off as a bit of a downer so I apologize in advance.

In 2003, my Mother passed away after a terrible ordeal with liver cancer. She fought for two years and lasted for as long as she could. It was a terrible nightmare to watch someone you know and love physically crumble apart. I was 23 years old at the time.
She passed on April 14. Despite grief and emotional trauma life does have a way of moving on, and the first thing my Father and I needed to confront was getting our taxes submitted for that year. We pulled out the paperwork and got to it. We submitted both of our tax forms on paper (a rarity now here in Canada).
When we received our response several months later, our envelopes were sent back to us. My Father's envelope contained a small photographic negative. When we saw the image on it, we immediately got the photo developed. It was a picture of my Mom during my parents honeymoon. She was sitting on a bench in Hawaii. She had a hybiscus flower in her hair and a sweet smile on her face. My Father was very touched and our family generally felt that it was a "sign".
Of course it wasn't hard to see what exactly had happened - we were sorting through old photo albums for pictures for the obituary and to remember old times. There was stuff scattered everywhere when we began to do our taxes so it's not unreasonable that a small negative somehow fell into Dad's envelope before he sent it off.

However, that photo to me was an amazing gift. Thinking about the coincidences that led to it not only being accidentally sent away but also accidentally returned to us are pretty amazing. What an astonishing universe we live in so that all factors concerning that photo could contribute to put it right back in our hands, hearts and minds at a time that we really needed it. That photograph was a gift, a gift from an unaware, dispassionate and non-intelligent universe. But a gift nonetheless, in the same way that every sunrise and sunset is a gift for those who are around to watch them and give them personal meaning.

My Mom never got to see me publish my first papers in a scientific journal, never got to see me get my B.Sc, never got to see my wedding - my wife had hybiscus flowers in her bouquet - and never got to see me begin my Ph.D. studies. That picture hangs in my cubicle in the grad office and reminds me every day that no matter what odds are stacked against me or what the universe happens to throw at me, I will never give up the fight. Just like my Mom.

The picture reminds me that even though we live in a chaotic, violent and fundamentally uncertain universe it is not impossible to find inspiration and meaning within it.

No woo necessary.

 

[ThatSoundAgain]

Welcome to the forums, Agent : Orange, and thanks for sharing your touching story.

 

[SusanB-M1]

I just want to say that Madame Francesca and me are not one and the same! My predictions are never rubbish

(Fran is short for Francesca)

Apologies! I should have added that it was over 25 years ago too.

 

[FSM]

Agent Orange, Welcome! And don't forget to post in the Welcome Thread. It's a nice place to go to introduce yourself.

Thanks for sharing your story. I thought it was touching and wonderful.

 

[Agent : Orange]

Welcome to the forums, Agent : Orange, and thanks for sharing your touching story.

Nice to meet you!