Istanbul airport attack

[Fudbucker]

Suppose everyone decides to say that "yep, that Islam sure is awful". What exactly is accomplished there? We aren't going to lock up everyone in the religion. So really how does pushing the angle that the religion is to blame in any way helpful?

What a lot of people don't get is we can't alienate moderate Muslims (who die in these kinds of attacks more than Westerners, it's just a blurb in the news when 50 Iraqi's die in a suicide attack). Islam is going through a rough reformation, and we have to make sure the moderates know they have our support. A ban on Muslims would be the biggest propaganda victory you could give to extremists like ISIS: SEE? We told you they hated us!!!

But it's hard to think geo-politically when people get blown up in Paris and massacred in San Bernadino. I live an hour from there. It's easy to get caught up in the "religion of evil" meme when these attacks happen.

 

[sunmaster14]

Suppose everyone decides to say that "yep, that Islam sure is awful". What exactly is accomplished there? We aren't going to lock up everyone in the religion. So really how does pushing the angle that the religion is to blame in any way helpful?

How was pushing the angle that (Christian) religion was to blame for discrimination against gays in any way helpful? Think about it. Social disapproval and ostracism can be powerful weapons.

Aside from that, I think profiling and restrictions on immigration are called for. Not against Muslims per se, but against those who come from countries where Islam permeates all aspects of society. Which is pretty much every country in the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, except Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, states of the former Soviet Union, and perhaps a few in sub-Saharan Africa.

 

[Minoosh]

Aside from that, I think profiling and restrictions on immigration are called for. Not against Muslims per se, but against those who come from countries where Islam permeates all aspects of society. Which is pretty much every country in the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, except Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, states of the former Soviet Union, and perhaps a few in sub-Saharan Africa.

I am skeptical of your expertise in quantifying the degree to which Islam has permeated various aspect of society. It addition, I question why the degree of permeation is such a key metric (if it is a metric at all, and not just a synonym for your opinion).

Anyway, this thread is about the Istanbul attacks. I'd like to hear from people who have some insight into why ISIS is attacking Turks in the first place.

ETA: Maybe everyone else knows this information already but in trying to educate myself I found this NBC report helpful.

 

[Minoosh]

ISIS is striking a neighboring government now - have they every gained ground against a real country?

ETA: It sounds volatile. Kurds, ISIS and NATO. Turkey has to hold it together in the middle of this and in my *very limited* experience Turkish nationalism is going to become an influence. A real country that neighbors Syria, whatever that has become.

 

[cullennz]

Please. You never heard of IRA (*) ? They are in ceasefire. they are not disarmed. Ever heard of The kurd/PKK ? They have the capacity too. Yes it is almost certainly Islamist's responsibility but get real, they are only one among many , even some in Europe, which have the capacity for such attacks. Heck the roadside bombs like ISIS or whatever group is not new. Even IRA had their culvert bombs... And I am sure it was existing even before.

(*) yes I know they have no reason to do that, but he was speaking of capacity as if magically ISIS were the only one which could do such bombs or attacks

This.

Probably ISIS but the yank focus on one group is getting a bit tedious

 

[cullennz]

How was pushing the angle that (Christian) religion was to blame for discrimination against gays in any way helpful? Think about it. Social disapproval and ostracism can be powerful weapons.

Aside from that, I think profiling and restrictions on immigration are called for. Not against Muslims per se, but against those who come from countries where Islam permeates all aspects of society. Which is pretty much every country in the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, except Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, states of the former Soviet Union, and perhaps a few in sub-Saharan Africa.

Lol

Like the US isn't already

 

[William Parcher]

BBC: The three men who carried out Tuesday's deadly attack on an Istanbul airport were all from parts of the former USSR, Turkish sources say.

One is said to be from Russia's North Caucasus region and the others from Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan.

Turkey believes so-called Islamic State (IS) was behind the suicide gun and bomb attack that left 43 people dead and 230 injured at Ataturk airport.

 

[William Parcher]

Security only engaged the terrorists because they noticed that they were wearing winter jackets on a summer day. They were profiled based on their appearance. That led to them being directly approached by security. At least one cop was shot point-blank when he went up to a winter jacket guy. The guns were hidden under the jackets. Belt bombs were hidden there too.

 

[newyorkguy]

The report the attackers were Russian, Uzbek and Kyrgyz nationals comes from a Turk official speaking off-the-record and without saying what evidence the report is based on. The suspects blew themselves up after all.

Turkish media reports the Russian bomber was Osman Vadinov from Dagestan, which borders Chechnya. The Russian was said to have entered Turkey from Syria and is believed to have been living in ISIS-controlled territory. Turk media also reports that Turkish security believes Akhmed Chatayev, of Chechen origin, was the organizer of the attack. Reuters news link

I'm surprised that ISIS has not claimed responsibility; in fact I'm surprised they haven't boasted about it. Look how quick they were to claim responsibility for the shooting in Florida, an attack they actually may have had nothing ro do with.

 

[Minoosh]

I'm surprised that ISIS has not claimed responsibility; in fact I'm surprised they haven't boasted about it. Look how quick they were to claim responsibility for the shooting in Florida, an attack they actually may have had nothing ro do with.

I thought that ISIS had claimed responsibility.

What the hell is going on? Why would people just do that, without making any claims or demands? How do you identify someone who has EXPLODED??

ETA: Obviously I have a lot to learn.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Sure, go ahead and compare Islam now to Christianity in the 1600's.

Does that make you feel better?

Why should I have a value judgement moment over it? Both are wrong. Just because Christiandom went through this violence against the Other stage earlier means nothing. You might think Chistendom is 500 years more mature, I'm not so sure.

We think we're all advanced and everything with our digital watches, but we live in huts of sticks and mud, practice genital mutilation on baby boys and insist our government leaders should have some kind of relationship with imaginary people. We're still very backward.

Islam is suffering from an outbreak of disempowered jerks empowering other disempowered jerks to commit violence. Islam as a larger whole needs to pull their heads out and unite in disavowing the actions of these so called Islamists who are merely using Islam as a tool of war against modernity and western liberal thought. I can't solve it. You can't solve it. It's a problem that needs to solve itself from within.

What's the statue of limitations for committing genocide, destroying the entire indigenous literary culture of nations and making Hawiians wear clothing in the rain and get pneumonia doing primitive European style manual labor agriculture? Do we really absolve Christendom for these acts of barbaric cruelty and ignorance just because they've not doing it at this exact minute?

 

[William Parcher]

How do you identify someone who has EXPLODED??

ETA: Obviously I have a lot to learn.

I'm sure that investigators have their ways. The taxi driver that brought them was interviewed and released. There is video of their faces. They already know where they lived and found a passport in an apartment. Since it was a suicide mission these guys probably weren't covering up every trace of their own existence and identity prior to the event.

 

[newyorkguy]

I thought that ISIS had claimed responsibility...

I don't think they have.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the attack and [Prime Minister Binali] Yildirim said efforts to identify the attackers, who arrived at the airport in two taxis, were continuing. News link

 

[Minoosh]

I don't think they have.

On second look I'm not finding anything saying ISIS was responsible.

I strongly believe there is more to this attack than meets the eye.

So much for the theory that former USSR regions/nations should be exempt from the extensive vetting advocated a few posts ago.

 

[McHrozni]

Are you being facetious? Of course other groups would be capable. 3 men with explosives is not an overwhelming project.

Three men walking into an airport, opening fire at civilians and then voluntarily blowing themselves up on the other hand is an overwhelming project for all known groups worldwide, except some Islamic fanatic ones.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

From 1980 to 2003, it was actually the LTTE (the Tamil Tigers) that carried out more suicide bombing attacks than any other terrorist group, including al-Qaeda.

Tamil Tigers carried out 378 suicide attacks between 5th July 1987 and 20th November 2008.

Islamists carried out 450 attacks between 1st January 2015 and 31st December 2015. Two more attacks were also done by Muslims for reasons other than their faith. There were no suicide attacks made by non-Muslims in 2015.

In other words, while it could be your statement is factually true (I didn't check that), this is more of an indication of fragmentation within the Islamic word and unity of Tamils than anything else. Yes, radical nationalism can produce bad results, anyone who ever heard of what happened in the first half of 20th century in Europe and Asia should know that.

McHrozni

 

[Aepervius]

Three men walking into an airport, opening fire at civilians and then voluntarily blowing themselves up on the other hand is an overwhelming project for all known groups worldwide, except some Islamic fanatic ones.

McHrozni

Not by any definition of overwhelming i know of.

overwhelming
əʊvəˈwɛlmɪŋ/
adjective
adjective: overwhelming

very great in amount.
"his party won overwhelming support"
synonyms: very large, profuse, enormous, immense, inordinate, massive, huge, formidable, stupendous, prodigious, fantastic, staggering, shattering, devastating, sweeping; More


As said above it would not be overwhelming by ability to a loooot of groups. It may not be seen as desirable, politically acceptable, ethical, moral, or whatever by those groups, but the capability is there and it is not overwhelming.

FFS even Harris and Klebold had explosive and massacred 13 people before offing themselves. Sure it was not suicide bombing but that makes little difference, they could have explosed their pipe bomb by that point.

Overwhelming ? get real. On the security level pre-check airport are poor and seen as soft target.

 

[cullennz]

I thought that ISIS had claimed responsibility.

What the hell is going on? Why would people just do that, without making any claims or demands? How do you identify someone who has EXPLODED??

ETA: Obviously I have a lot to learn.

Nope.

As much as the US like to propaganda there are plenty of other reasons for people offing themselves so dramatically

 

[McHrozni]

FFS even Harris and Klebold had explosive and massacred 13 people before offing themselves. Sure it was not suicide bombing but that makes little difference, they could have explosed their pipe bomb by that point.

If you assume two people with mental issues amount to an "organization", sure. I don't. For it to be an organization it would have to retain some assets that would capitalize on their attack. As far as I know they didn't have that.

McHrozni

 

[Aepervius]

If you assume two people with mental issues amount to an "organization", sure. I don't. For it to be an organization it would have to retain some assets that would capitalize on their attack. As far as I know they didn't have that.

McHrozni

The point was that it does not take overwhelming planning , if two people with mental issues (your word) can do it.