Isreal-Occupied Palestinian Territory: Gaza food supplies strangled by 1,000-day bloc

[Mycroft]

I am not talking politics. I am talking morals. I am not pushing an agenda I am calling what I see hapopening using words that fit the actions. If they do not fit what is happening, then please explain why they do not.

I’m all for morals. As a matter of morality, I think it’s wrong to go around making criminal accusations for actions that don’t fit the legal definition. You apparently disagree, perhaps thinking that hyperbole is justified for a greater good.

They are not the only group making these type of statements. They cannot all be wrong.

Oh please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

If they can be fooled by the Palestines into reporting something else then more fool them, but a deliberate bias has yet to be proven.

There are a lot of organizations, some are biased, some less so, some biased in the other direction. To sort it all out you just have to take a look at what they say and what the basis of their claims are. It really helps to ground yourself in a little history first so that when you look at the various claims you can place them in context and spot which ones leave out important details.

As far as Palestinians fooling people…sure, there is some of that too, but mostly we’re talking about people just like you, people who probably know a given term is technically inaccurate but who make a choice to use it anyway because they believe it serves a greater purpose.

Put it this way. Do you think Israel has been hurt by their govt and actions over the last few years? From a world view looking at them? I have seen a serious shift in opinion on this situation within my country recently from people who were onside with them in the past. I despair the road they are taking.

I hear a lot of noise that supposedly this government is particularly egregious, but when you ask for specific actions that make them bad then suddenly it becomes a lot more vague, and the claims are made by the same old people that never approved of anything Israel has done for the last several governments anyway. My personal opinion is their disgruntlement has more to do with Israel’s success over the last several years in preventing Palestinian violence than it does with any supposed bad thing they believe Israel has done.

Has Israel made mistakes over the past couple of years? Of course they have. All governments make mistakes, and the mistakes are easier to make in an environment of armed hostilities. But the thing to understand is that whatever mistakes are made, it doesn’t change the fundamentals. In the end, both of these peoples need and deserve peace and security.

That’s actually true of both sides. If the Palestinians succeed in some awful terrorist attack that kills dozens, it may well be awful, but it doesn’t invalidate their nationalistic ambitions

 

[bigjelmapro]

Your strawman that it has to be a legal use of the term is pathetic shield of steel. What israel is doing is collective punishment. They are punishing the many for the acts of the few. This blockade is inhumane.

Refer to this post:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6042148&postcount=17

Reply in kind and no need to obfuscate this into a morality issue as well. I see you've excused Hamas in their responsibility for this blockade in the first place.

You are slowly turning world opinion against you with your disgusting actions.

I am? By arguing against propaganda? Then so be it. Love it how this comes from a Brit though. Sheer hypocrisy for the win!

Are the Red Cross anti semitic? Are they picking on poor Israel?

And you accuse me of using legal terms as a shield. However, peddling the anti-semitic angle ad nauseum you have no issue with.

IIRC is supposedly coming on the next flotilla, yet not a peep on demanding to see Shalit in Gaza. Nope.

Care to try again?

 

[bigjelmapro]

Have your pick on the NGO's:

NGO Index

Covers their political agenda, if there is one, and their funders.

If Funk really has an interest on the breakdown of these NGO's and often why they state they same thing, then you have to break it down.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Interesting article/study on Hamas's intentions:

The cement shortage in the Gaza Strip

...
Speaking at a convention of the Arab parties in Damascus (November 12, 2009), Khaled Mash’al said that most of Hamas’ efforts in the Gaza Strip are targeted towards military preparations: “On the surface, [statements in the Gaza Strip] refer to reconciliation [between Hamas and Fatah] and rebuilding, however, what is not revealed is that most of Hamas’ funds and efforts are invested in the resistance and military preparations… We are intent on the resistance”.

And a nice aerial of a Hamas-controlled cement factory in Gaza using local resources:

Self-production—the Hamas military wing manufactures construction materials, including cement and concrete, in Gaza Strip factories which it closely supervises. The cement is manufactured from locally-available raw materials (such as fly ash and sea sand). For that purpose, Hamas built many new factories specifically affiliated with the military wing.

Oh, those pesky drones saw my cement factory!

 

[Segnosaur]

Well the special unbiased link you gave to back up your Israeli one does not give names at all.
CBC does not name anyone.

You're right, the CBC article doesn't give names... it does, however, back up most of the other information given in the Jerusalem Post article (namely statements by Hansen.) To me, it certainly adds credibility.

Jerusalem Post? No (even if the link did work for me).

The link worked in post #32 when the article was initially referenced (sorry, didn't work when I double-quoted it, but the initial reference worked.)

By the way, are you assuming the Jerusalem post is biased/cannot be trusted?

These were supposed to back up the earlier claim of MANY.

I see... so your argument is that pointing out 2 well known cases and a statement from a U.N. official that says "we may employee hamas members and don't care if we do" isn't enough proof of "many"?

How many people have to be given before you accept that "many" Hamas members have worked for the U.N.?

Here's another reference, this time to a U.S. government document, which points to 3 more UNRWA employees being convicted of various terrorist acts (such as firebombing buses)...
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04276r.pdf (see page 28)

So, we're up to 5 people... Siam and al-Qiq (discussed earlier), plus the 3 mentioned in the above article.

Is 5 enough to qualify as 'many'?

Or how about Nidal Nazzal, who used a UNRWA ambulance to transport weapons for Hamas?

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/pubPDFs/PolicyFocus91.pdf
(Note: This article is from a "think tank", which often are biased; however, that particular article was written by a former UNWRA legal adviser, and was referenced by factcheck.org as a source, which should lend it credibility. See: http://www.factcheck.org/2009/02/hamas-refugee-assistance/)

So, we're up to 6 people. That enough to be considered 'many'?

The Reuters one is pretty ironic when you consider the stooshie the Israeli defenders are having over their cropping of pictures.

So? Are you assuming just because Reuters has gotten accused of being anti-Israeli in some cases, that they are somehow wrong in this article?