• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Isreal-Occupied Palestinian Territory: Gaza food supplies strangled by 1,000-day bloc

DC said:
Israel should control and then give it in the hands of UN forces. imho
Click to expand...
Firstly, Hamas would never accept such propositions and I doubt they would accept a UN controlled humanitarian aid corridor in Gaza.

And in respect to the UN, they have a history of failing in that regard, ie UNIFIL in Lebanon.
 
bigjelmapro said:
Wasn't suggesting the use of UN employees, but of a peacekeeper force with the needed charter to effectively control the flow of goods once they've pass Israeli land entry points.
Click to expand...

Just how far would those peacekeepers be taking things?

Remember, many of the items needed in Gaza do have dual use.... concrete can be used for either building homes, or installations to launch missiles from. Metal tubing can be used for either plumbing or building rockets. Fertilizer can be used for either growing crops or building explosives.

Will those peacekeeping troops controlling the flow of goods track them to their end use? Will they ensure that concrete actually does get used to build homes? Will they track each bag of fertilizer until it gets applied to fields to make sure it doesn't get diverted to make a car bomb?
 
Segnosaur said:
Just how far would those peacekeepers be taking things?
...
Will those peacekeeping troops controlling the flow of goods track them to their end use? Will they ensure that concrete actually does get used to build homes? Will they track each bag of fertilizer until it gets applied to fields to make sure it doesn't get diverted to make a car bomb?
Click to expand...
Guess the rebuilding process will have to be built in sections at a time whereby these peacekeepers would keep an eye on the material used. As for the fertilizer, I take it farmers will be allotted certain amounts and would somehow be expected to yield a certain amount in crops. The latter I would have no idea how this would be enforced. Perhaps informants working for the UN?

More hits (by whom, who knows) on bomb/rocket making 'factories' I take it. Since I'm sure these weapon materials have been consistently coming in via the tunnels.

This is all hypothetical though and I really doubt that this would be followed through since Hamas would undoubtedly disagree with alleviating these hardships on their people in the first place and hurt their income from smuggling.

I do think, however, that distribution of humanitarian aid and this corridor is a necessary step towards ending this state of armed warfare. And no, I don't mean another pointless hudna.
 
bigjelmapro said:
Pfft. You missed this and the other threads where this isn't the case and that the legal argument against this blockade doesn't hold water?

Didn't think so....
Click to expand...

I guess the Red Cross are anti semitic as well eh?

Collective punishment of innocent civilians. Classy.
 
anyone who DARES to challenge the legality of the Gaza blockade, is an anti-Semite.

:p
 
Segnosaur said:
Ummm... does this mean you have doubts that some of the employees working for the U.N. are also involved with Hamas?

From: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL05686115
By day, Awad al-Qiq was a respected science teacher and headmaster at a United Nations school in the Gaza Strip. By night, Palestinian militants say, he built rockets for Islamic Jihad.

Granted, this was at a school rather than with food distribution services, but I assume the U.N. would want people to believe that their entire organization is "terrorist-free".
Click to expand...

Do you feel your single example supports wildcats claim about "many" Un people being controlled by Hamas?

Demonising the UN is one of wildcats hobbies.
 
bigjelmapro said:
Oh more whinging.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6042148&postcount=17

Just in case you missed it. Throwing around legal terms doesn't quite cut it any more...
Click to expand...

Your strawman that it has to be a legal use of the term is pathetic shield of steel. What israel is doing is collective punishment. They are punishing the many for the acts of the few. This blockade is inhumane.

You are slowly turning world opinion against you with your disgusting actions.

"The whole of Gaza's civilian population is being punished for acts for which they bear no responsibility. The closure therefore constitutes a collective punishment imposed in clear violation of Israel's obligations under international humanitarian law," the agency said in the statement.
Click to expand...

Are the Red Cross anti semitic? Are they picking on poor Israel?
 
Last edited:
The Fool said:
Ummm... does this mean you have doubts that some of the employees working for the U.N. are also involved with Hamas?

From: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL05686115
By day, Awad al-Qiq was a respected science teacher and headmaster at a United Nations school in the Gaza Strip. By night, Palestinian militants say, he built rockets for Islamic Jihad.
Click to expand...

Do you feel your single example supports wildcats claim about "many" Un people being controlled by Hamas?
Click to expand...

Actually, it was just one example, but there is other evidence...

From: http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/rocketlife/entry/unrwa_where_is_the_money
n 2004, former UNRWA commissioner-General Peter Hansen revealed to the Canadian Broadcasting Company that UNRWA may very well employ Hamas members. "I am sure that there are Hamas members on the UNRWA payroll and I don't see that as crime," Hansen infamously stated. He further added that "We do not do political vetting and exclude people from one persuasion as against another."
...
Hamas's interior minister and head of the Executive Force, Said Siam, was a teacher for over two decades in UNRWA schools.

(Note: In case there is doubt about that reference, being from an Israeli site, much of the same information is contained at this site: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2004/10/03/unwra041003.html)
 
funk de fino said:
Your strawman that it has to be a legal use of the term is pathetic shield of steel. What israel is doing is collective punishment. They are punishing the many for the acts of the few. This blockade is inhumane.
Click to expand...

It is a legal term. Therefore you should follow the legal definition.

I don't even understand how that can be argued. Defining your terms so everybody is on the same page is the first rule of any discussion. If you recognize that it doesn't fit the legal definition, you still have the option of arguing it's immoral.

funk de fino said:
You are slowly turning world opinion against you with your disgusting actions.
Click to expand...

It seems to me most people who were "turned" were already turned. I personally am disgusted that "activists" are apparently okay with being infiltrated by violent provocateurs who staged an ambush like this.

funk de fino said:
Are the Red Cross anti semitic? Are they picking on poor Israel?
Click to expand...

Are you claiming it's out of the question that anyone in the Red Cross could ever put out a biased report?
 
Mycroft said:
It is a legal term. Therefore you should follow the legal definition.
Click to expand...
This is BS. I can call what they are doing to Gaza what I want. It is a description that fits the facts. Would they be able to weasel out of it in a court of law? I dont care, I call what I see.


I don't even understand how that can be argued. Defining your terms so everybody is on the same page is the first rule of any discussion. If you recognize that it doesn't fit the legal definition, you still have the option of arguing it's immoral.
Click to expand...

See world opinion on what they are doing at the moment.

It seems to me most people who were "turned" were already turned. I personally am disgusted that "activists" are apparently okay with being infiltrated by violent provocateurs who staged an ambush like this.
Click to expand...

More BS. I have been a defender of Israel in the past and very much against the actions of the idiot terrorists attacking them. I am slowly being turned against them due to the govt they have and actions they are carrying out.

Are you claiming it's out of the question that anyone in the Red Cross could ever put out a biased report?
Click to expand...

Why dont you look at the many organisations saying the same thing. Is everyone biased against Israel? It seems Israelis think so. Or are you claiming the Red Cross are anti semitic?
 
Last edited:
funk de fino said:
This is BS. I can call what they are doing to Gaza what I want. It is a description that fits the facts. Would they be able to weasel out of it in a court of law? I dont care, I call what I see.
Click to expand...

Well, a lot of people agree with you, that the actual definitions of words doesn’t matter if changing them can advance an agenda. I push for a higher standard, but politics is inherently dirty and a lot of people will disagree with me.



funk de fino said:
Why dont you look at the many organisations saying the same thing. Is everyone biased against Israel? It seems Israelis think so. Or are you claiming the Red Cross are anti semitic?
Click to expand...

I seriously doubt that the IRC is anti-Semitic as an organization, but thanks for trying to pin that on me. That also makes a lovely straw-man to throw at anyone who disagrees with you, so be sure to get all the mileage you can from it. Straw is a renewable resource.

At the same time, I remember quite well a couple years ago the IRC endorsing condemnations of Israel for supposedly targeting ambulances with hellfire rockets during the war with Lebanon, accompanied by photographs of ambulances that were clearly junk-yard ambulances that had never been touched by a rocket…so I acknowledge the possibility of human error, or even outright bias, with the organization.

That doesn’t change that I believe overall the IRC does great work. They’ve been the subject of my charitable giving in the past and will no doubt be the beneficiary in the future.
 
Mycroft said:
Well, a lot of people agree with you, that the actual definitions of words doesn’t matter if changing them can advance an agenda. I push for a higher standard, but politics is inherently dirty and a lot of people will disagree with me.
Click to expand...

I am not talking politics. I am talking morals. I am not pushing an agenda I am calling what I see hapopening using words that fit the actions. If they do not fit what is happening, then please explain why they do not.

I seriously doubt that the IRC is anti-Semitic as an organization, but thanks for trying to pin that on me. That also makes a lovely straw-man to throw at anyone who disagrees with you, so be sure to get all the mileage you can from it. Straw is a renewable resource.

At the same time, I remember quite well a couple years ago the IRC endorsing condemnations of Israel for supposedly targeting ambulances with hellfire rockets during the war with Lebanon, accompanied by photographs of ambulances that were clearly junk-yard ambulances that had never been touched by a rocket…so I acknowledge the possibility of human error, or even outright bias, with the organization.

That doesn’t change that I believe overall the IRC does great work. They’ve been the subject of my charitable giving in the past and will no doubt be the beneficiary in the future.
Click to expand...

They are not the only group making these type of statements. They cannot all be wrong.

If they can be fooled by the Palestines into reporting something else then more fool them, but a deliberate bias has yet to be proven.

Put it this way. Do you think Israel has been hurt by their govt and actions over the last few years? From a world view looking at them? I have seen a serious shift in opinion on this situation within my country recently from people who were onside with them in the past. I despair the road they are taking.
 
funk de fino said:
Actually, it was just one example, but there is other evidence...

From: http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/rocketli...e_is_the_money
n 2004, former UNRWA commissioner-General Peter Hansen revealed to the Canadian Broadcasting Company that UNRWA may very well employ Hamas members. "I am sure that there are Hamas members on the UNRWA payroll and I don't see that as crime," Hansen infamously stated. He further added that "We do not do political vetting and exclude people from one persuasion as against another."
...
Hamas's interior minister and head of the Executive Force, Said Siam, was a teacher for over two decades in UNRWA schools.
Click to expand...

Except you forgot to provide any. Try reading your quote again.

Especially the "may very well" part
Click to expand...

Umm... I actually provided 2 separate names in this thread... Siam and al-Qiq. Both were employed by the United Nations, both were engaged in terrorist activity. Seems like pretty conclusive evidence that the statement "may very well" is most likely a "yes".

What exactly is your problem? Do you doubt the sources? (One was from Reuters, the other from the Jerreusilum post/CBC, and in my opinion they are fairly credible sources.)
Or are you assuming that somehow those were isolated incidents, and there were no other terrorists who worked for the U.N. (or that they've somehow 'cleaned up' their employee ranks)?
 
Segnosaur said:
Umm... I actually provided 2 separate names in this thread... Siam and al-Qiq. Both were employed by the United Nations, both were engaged in terrorist activity. Seems like pretty conclusive evidence that the statement "may very well" is most likely a "yes".
Click to expand...

Well the special unbiased link you gave to back up your Israeli one does not give names at all. It is speculation and whinging by some Israeli. How does this back up anything you say?

What exactly is your problem? Do you doubt the sources? (One was from Reuters, the other from the Jerreusilum post/CBC, and in my opinion they are fairly credible sources.)
Click to expand...

CBC does not name anyone. Jerusalem Post? No (even if the link did work for me). These were supposed to back up the earlier claim of MANY.

They dont. The Reuters one is pretty ironic when you consider the stooshie the Israeli defenders are having over their cropping of pictures. I see a lot of "sources" in that piece as well. Not assuming are we?

When did the Said Siam work in the schools?

Or are you assuming that somehow those were isolated incidents, and there were no other terrorists who worked for the U.N. (or that they've somehow 'cleaned up' their employee ranks)?
Click to expand...

I am assuming you can come up with many names.

PS - It was evidence we were talking about, just in case you forgot.
 
Last edited:
funk de fino said:
When did the Said Siam work in the schools?
Click to expand...



It is unknown when Seyam joined Hamas, but he was one of the early members. Seyam held a job as a teacher at various United Nations-run schools until 2003.[2] He was arrested four times during the First Intifada from 1987 to 1991.[3] In 1992, he was expelled from the Palestinian territories by Israel to southern Lebanon and upon his return in 1995, Seyam was arrested by the Preventive Security Service (PSS) dominated by Fatah.[2][3]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Said_Seyam#Hamas_membership



The UN run schools in the Palestinian territories actually voted Hamas as their teacher's union. I suppose you want me to find a link for that too.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom