Israeli Apartheid?

[Policenaut]

Yes but the settlements are not a policy of the government and in that very article Livni says the settlements need to go.

"But one very important Israeli says she intends to move them out. She's Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, a candidate to become prime minister in elections next month. She's also Israel’s chief negotiator with the Palestinians, and she told 60 Minutes peace is unthinkable with the settlers where they are."

"But you know that there are settlers who say, 'We will fight. We will not leave. We will fight,'" Simon asked.

"So this is the responsibility of the government and police to stop them. As simple as that. Israel is a state of law and order," Livni said.

 

[lupus_in_fabula]

Yes but the settlements are not a policy of the government and in that very article Livni says the settlements need to go.

And yet it seems to have been part of de facto policy anyway, in a sneaky way it seems (at least as late as 2002, might still be current also). Here's a summary by B'Selem. And for people interested, the full document here (opens a pdf-file: can also be opened through link on the same page).


Some points, on how it relates to policy. First, The Annexation Policy and Local Government (see Chapt. 4):

The government, the Knesset and the IDF commanders, with the blessing of the High Court of Justice altered Israeli and military legislation with the objective of enabling the de facto annexation of the settlements to the State of Israel, while avoiding the problems that would be caused by de jure annexation, particularly in the international arena.

Second, Benefits and Financial Incentives (see Chapt. 5):

One of the main tools used to channel resources to the residents of the settlements is the definition of most of the settlements in the West Bank as “development areas” (according to the term applying through 1992) or as “national priority areas.” This definition has been applied not only to settlements (in the West Bank and in the Gaza Strip), but also to various communities inside Israel, particularly in the Galilee and the Negev.

Thus...

The benefits and incentives provided for the priority areas are granted by six government ministries; Housing and Construction; National Infrastructure (through the Israel Lands Administration); Education; Trade and Industry; Labor and Social Affairs; and Finance (through income tax).

...and when it comes to local authorities:

One of the mechanisms used by the government to favor local authorities in the West Bank, in comparison to those inside Israel, is the channeling of money through the Settlement Division of the World Zionist Organization (hereafter “the Division”). As described above, the sole purpose of the Division is to establish settlements in the territories occupied in 1967 and to support the continued development of these settlements. Most of the support funds granted by the Division are transferred to the settlers via the local authorities, both within the framework of the regular budget and in the special budget. The unique aspect of the Division is that on the one hand, the budget is drawn entirely from the state budget, while on the other, the rules, procedures and laws applying to government ministries − above all, the Basic Law: The Budget − do not apply because the Division is not a government body.

 

[Thunder]

Are Israeli Arabs allowed to live in the settlements? The answer is no. Therefore, Israel discriminated against its own citizens based on religion and ethnicity.

That is why Israel is an Apartheid state.

Just imagine if Germany built thousands of new housing structures in Bavaria...but stated that only citizens of German blood could live there. Imagine the outcry that would ensue.

 

[Skeptic]

"It's the settlement's fault" is all very nice, but the real reason for the continuation of the occupation currently continues instead of ending in 2000 is that the entire Oslo peace process was a fraud on Arafat's part from the start, whose sole purpose was to get land to use as a terrorist base camp to kill more Jews.

Since the Oslo process started, all land given to the Palestinians was simply turned into a base for launching attacks on Israel, whether by terorrism (the West Bank) or rockets (Gaza). There is little doubt a Palestinian state will simply be such a uber-terorrist-camp. For fifteen years of a "peace process", Israel didn't have a single day of peace, the Palestinians, not a single day without trying to kill Jews.

It's a Hobson's choice indeed for Israel, but it helps explain all those "inhumane" checkpoints and "apartheid" wall.

 

[FireGarden]

Are Israeli Arabs allowed to live in the settlements? The answer is no. Therefore, Israel discriminated against its own citizens based on religion and ethnicity.

That is why Israel is an Apartheid state.

It's a Hobson's choice indeed for Israel, but it helps explain all those "inhumane" checkpoints and "apartheid" wall.

How many Israeli Arabs live in the settlements?

Oh,
You weren't responding to Parky....

 

[Thunder]

What is Israel's justification for the West Bank settlements being for Jewish citizens only?

What kind of liberal Western democracy allows housing discrimination based on religion or ethnicity...in government built communities????

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

"It's the settlement's fault" is all very nice, but the real reason for the continuation of the occupation currently continues instead of ending in 2000 is that the entire Oslo peace process was a fraud on Arafat's part from the start, whose sole purpose was to get land to use as a terrorist base camp to kill more Jews.

Since the Oslo process started, all land given to the Palestinians was simply turned into a base for launching attacks on Israel, whether by terorrism (the West Bank) or rockets (Gaza). There is little doubt a Palestinian state will simply be such a uber-terorrist-camp. For fifteen years of a "peace process",

Sigh. I'm surprised you haven't called the West Bank and Gaza an 'Axis of Evil' yet.

You're propagandic rhetoric is up there with neocon crap

Israel didn't have a single day of peace, the Palestinians, not a single day without trying to kill Jews.

It's a Hobson's choice indeed for Israel, but it helps explain all those "inhumane" checkpoints and "apartheid" wall.

How many Jews outside of Israel have the Palestinians tried to kill? but you're statement was so loaded. And speaks volumes What about "the Palestinians who haven't had a single day of peace and Israel not a single day without trying to kill Palestinians"

See it works both ways.

 

[Thunder]

How many Jews outside of Israel have the Palestinians tried to kill?

Um..ever heard of the embassy and jewish center bombings in Argentina?

Ever heard of the Munich Olympic massacre?

Ever heard of all the hijackings commited by Palestinians during the 60s and 70s?

Achille Lauro?

The murder of Avi Halberstam on the Brooklyn Bridge?

I guess not. All Zionist myths right?

And when not Zionist myths..then justified acts of resistance..right?

 

[portlandatheist]

This post is specifically about Israeli apartheid, but one may also consider if your arguments also apply to Lebanon. Given that apartheid is wrong in either case, I think Lebanon should be held to the same standards.

Palestinian refugees in Lebanon face specific problems. They have no social and civil rights, and limited access to the government's public health or educational facilities and no access to public social services.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/05/21/lebanon.camps/index.html
I'm not making excuses here, two wrongs don't make a right. My point is that Lebanon also deserves scrutiny in this regard. I think there is an important distinction to be made between the West Bank and Nahr al-Bared Palestinian refugee camp, and that is that is there is more presence of UN and the general notion that the camp being "governed" to some degree by the UN which lets the Lebanese government off the hook to some degree.
Nevertheless, the Palestinians are used as pawns and having pissed off and deprived Palestinians seems to be strategic to some degree or at the very least, intentional.

I don't want to derail the thread as a very specific question was raised in the OP so I'll make a meager attempt at it:
As far as Israel proper is concerned and the Gaza strip, there is no apartheid. As far as the West Bank, a reasonable case has been made by Parky and others and I haven't made up my mind and don't have anything meaningful to contribute other than the settlements should be abandoned by the Israelis, as painful and costly as that may be.

 

[gumboot]

I don't want to derail the thread as a very specific question was raised in the OP so I'll make a meager attempt at it:
As far as Israel proper is concerned and the Gaza strip, there is no apartheid. As far as the West Bank, a reasonable case has been made by Parky and others and I haven't made up my mind and don't have anything meaningful to contribute other than the settlements should be abandoned by the Israelis, as painful and costly as that may be.

That's mostly in line with my own thoughts on the matter.

 

[portlandatheist]

Um..ever heard of the embassy and jewish center bombings in Argentina?

Ever heard of the Munich Olympic massacre?

Ever heard of all the hijackings commited by Palestinians during the 60s and 70s?

Achille Lauro?

The murder of Avi Halberstam on the Brooklyn Bridge?

I guess not. All Zionist myths right?

And when not Zionist myths..then justified acts of resistance..right?

I just wanted to mention Ilan Halimi who was killed in France. They weren't Palestinians, but sympathizers. And lets not forget the objectives of Hamas, their evil ambitions aren't "just" the extermination of Israeli jews, but all jews.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I just wanted to mention Ilan Halimi who was killed in France. They weren't Palestinians, but sympathizers. And lets not forget the objectives of Hamas, their evil ambitions aren't "just" the extermination of Israeli jews, but all jews.

Where have Hamas attacked anyone outside of Israel? Care to give us some examples.

Surely you're not basing your assumption on an old charter which was drawn up by a radical Islamist Cleric years ago which Hamas doesn't even bother with anymore.

Surely if Hamas was intent on 'exterminating 'all' Jews, they would have made some attempt other than fighting against the persecution of the Palestinians?

 

[portlandatheist]

That's mostly in line with my own thoughts on the matter.

Good to hear. I feel that one important step in the peace process, should peace ever occur, is clear and unambiguous boundaries. Both physical and psychological. If these boundaries can be drawn and respected, then peace MAY be possible. The settlements make these boundaries impossible. In the case of the Gaza strip, boundaries have been drawn quite clearly and have not been respected by either side but much more disrespected by Gaza than Israel.

 

[portlandatheist]

Surely you're not basing your assumption on an old charter which was drawn up by a radical Islamist Cleric years ago which Hamas doesn't even bother with anymore.

Yes, I do take their charter seriously. What I don't take seriously is any delusions from a truther.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Yes, I do take their charter seriously. What I don't take seriously is any delusions from a truther.

Presumably that was aimed at me. Can you explain what this has to do with 911? Or was that remark just some childish add on because you've no other argument?

Given the fact I've never claimed 911 was an inside job I would say it's the latter. So that case.... grow up.

 

[Thunder]

Presumably that was aimed at me. Can you explain what this has to do with 911? Or was that remark just some childish add on because you've no other argument?

Given the fact I've never claimed 911 was an inside job I would say it's the latter. So that case.... grow up.

Are you saying you do not believe that 9-11 was an inside job?

 

[Thunder]

Where have Hamas attacked anyone outside of Israel? Care to give us some examples.

First you asked for examples where Palestinians killed people outside of Israel.

Many examples were given.

Now, you ask for examples where Hamas has killed people outside of Israel.

That's pretty funny, my friend.

 

[portlandatheist]

Presumably that was aimed at me. Can you explain what this has to do with 911? Or was that remark just some childish add on because you've no other argument?

Given the fact I've never claimed 911 was an inside job I would say it's the latter. So that case.... grow up.

That was off topic and ad hominem, I apologize.

 

[Marc39]

I will spell this out as clearly as I can.

Israel itself, is NOT an Apartheid state. Non-Jews have full civil rights. There is, however, widespread discrimination against Arabs and Muslims in the private sector of society, including businesses, housing, employment, education, etc.

Now, as far as the West Bank is concerned...this IS an Apartheid regime.

So, Israel is, what, just slightly apartheid? Somewhat apatheid? A little apartheid? Apartheid is a system of state-sanctioned, legislated discrimination based on race to ensure political and economic domination of a minority over a majority. This simply does not exist in the West Bank nor in Israel. The reasons for the situation in the West Bank involving disparate living conditions between Arabs and Jews has nothing to do with intentional subjugation and everything to do with an ongoing conflict over land and the need to impose security measures to prevent terrorism. Now, Gaza, just next door to the West Bank and Israel, which forbids Jews from living there, IS an example of apartheid.

 

[Thunder]

2) It cannot apply to foreign territory including the Palestinian territories of Gaza and the West Bank (except for settled areas as established above).

.

Israel rules the West Bank. BS it cannot apply Apartheid-like rules and restrictions to the West Bank.

Israel has Jew-only roads in the West Bank. Israel allows the Jewish cities, towns, and villages in the West bank (all illegal) to discriminate against Arabs and all non-Jews, for that matter.

Israel demolishes Arab owned private property, knowing FULL WELL that it is indeed legitimately owned private property, and then builds settlements that ONLY Israeli-Jews are allowed to live in (using Israeli-Arab taxpayer funds).

And if that wasn't enough, within Israel itself, the govt. allows towns, schools, employers, to NOT hire or enroll or sell to someone based on their religion and ethnicity. And the fact is, this is mostly practised by Jews who discriminate against Arabs and other non-Jews.

Israel has built hundreds of cities and towns for Jewish citizens. Not ONE..for Arab citizens.

Israel has demolished thousands of acres of Arab owned land to build its state. NO Arabs have ever been compensated for this lost land. Even the Knesset is built on Arab land.

Now, this is not exactly the same as South African Apartheid. It is also not the same as Segregation in the American South. But it is similar. It is the Israeli version of Apartheid. It is called Hafrada.

....I know, I know. Jews can't be racist. Especially collectively. Any suggestion of such is anti-Semitism. I know...I know.