Israel is proud to present: The aggressor-victim

[stokes234]

Where have I said that?

Indeed. I don't see how you could have read that in what I said. Maybe you should go back and read it again?

I said that the displacements were resulting in lower standards of living etc. You responded by saying that in that case, palestinians should stop their terrorist attacks. In this way, you implied that the expansions were a result of the terrorist attacks.

I don't like ad-hominems so please don't take this the wrong way, but if you cannot understand this concept then I have no interest in debating with you.

 

[Pardalis]

I said that the displacements were resulting in lower standards of living etc. You responded by saying that in that case, palestinians should stop their terrorist attacks.

Yes, terrorist attacks will not help improve their standard of living. You disagree?

In this way, you implied that the expansions were a result of the terrorist attacks.

Again, I don't understand where you see that in what I wrote.

ETA: Just to be clear, the only thing I've said is terrorist attacks are not a good response to the settlements. I never said the settlements were a response to the terrorist attacks. That would be indeed silly.

 

[Skeptic]

Yes, in the short term this will be the case.

The Oslo "peace" accord was 17 years ago. How long exactly is the "long run"? Please tell me since, being in Israel, I'd like to know how many years I've got to live under rocket fire without fighting back before the "long run" magically occurs and makes the same folks who fired rockets at me for decades suddenly stop.

 

[stokes234]

The Oslo "peace" accord was 17 years ago. How long exactly is the "long run"? Please tell me since, being in Israel, I'd like to know how many years I've got to live under rocket fire without fighting back before the "long run" magically occurs and makes the same folks who fired rockets at me for decades suddenly stop.

The fact that the oslo peace accords didn't prevent israeli expansion into palestinian territory show that the oslo peace accords aren't a good test as to whether preventing israeli expansion into palestinian territory for a long period of time would result in fewer rocket attacks on israel.

 

[Thunder]

Maybe if you stopped making those strawmen and just stuck with what people actually said, it would be less confusing.

um...this what I am saying. and yes, its a strawman. A very funny one.

 

[Thunder]

This theory was put to the test. Since 1993, the Oslo "peace" accords date, every single piece of land turned over to the Palestinians resulted in more attacks on Jews from that area.
.

funny stuff.

 

[Skeptic]

The fact that the oslo peace accords didn't prevent israeli expansion into palestinian territory

You seem to be ignoring everything I told you about what would happen every time Israel would give up territory after the "peace" accord. It would instantly be attacked from there.

In his speeches about why such attacks are taking place, Arafat -- curiously enough -- never (or hardly ever) mentioned settlements.

He constantly, on the other hand, mentioned Jihad, kicking the Jews into the sea, having a "million martyrs librerate Jerusalem" (somehow I doubt he meant only those disputed areas where Jews, oh horror, want to buy houses from Arabs -- a crime punishable by death to any seller, according to the "moderate" Palestinian authority), etc.

The Fatah (that is, PLO) central committee reaffirmed its dedication to eradicating the "zionist entity" -- in its entirety -- as soon as August 2009. Not a word about the settlements in that declaration, either.

Hamas is the same, indeed worse.

So why should I believe your analysis when the very people who send the bombers explicitly, repeatedly, and constantly, tell their people the real reason for the war is the very existence of Israel and the goal is its destruction?

Why do you think someone who thinks the holocaust is a Jewish lie and the Protocols accurate history, like Hamas, would be in the least influenced by whether a Jew buys an apartment somewhere?

If anything, experience shows that, as expected, these folks merely see any giving up of territory as a sign of weakness and a sign to increase terrorism and violence even more.

The belief that the war is due to "expansion into Palestinian territory" is true only inasmuch as the PLO and Hamas see all of Israel as "Palestinian territory" which must be "liberated" from Jews.

It's a desperate excuse, I think, to try and find something -- anything -- to make the Jews take the blame for the terrorist war of annihilation the "moderate" PLO together with Hamas forced on it.

The alternative -- to admit to yourself that, for years, you were a sucker who supported "peace-loving moderates" who in reality just wanted the territory so they can continue to kill Jews -- is too shameful to contemplate, apparently.

 

[JihadJane]

OK, progress. You at first said Pakistan, now you are saying the ISI. There -is- a difference between the two, kind of like the CIA and the United States. Some could say the CIA does its own thing, often times against the interest of the United States.

The fact that we support nasty regimes is not news to anyone here. BUT, the sidelining of fundamentalist agents in the ISI and the Army is good news to me.

:confused

I said: "Pakistan's ISI"

Sidelining a few agents makes no difference to overall policy. It's window dressing.

It is a tactical act for those who plan, arm, and indoctrinate the bombers. For the bombers themselves, it is an act of nihilism only brought on by religious fervor.

How do you know this? From what I've read many suicide bombers are avenging the death of family members or attacks on their community.

You would have a point about the drone, if the drone was a living being, and instead of keeping it in the air, we drove it into religious ceremonies and groups of civilians on a regular basis.

Drone operators do kill civilians on a regular basis. At least one in three killed by US drones in Pakistan is a civilian.

In before "We do that already!!"

It wouldn't be so bad discussing this if you just admitted you were a nihilist.

I'm not "a nihilist".

We're discussing suicide bombings. If you wish to discuss the mentality of drone operators, you can start a thread on it


Probably the same thing Hamas and the IRA were thinking. What's your point? I've already told you I think they are all terrorists. .

You ludicrously claimed to be able to identify the thoughts of suicide bombers and now, also, those of Hamas and the IRA terrorists. That's why I asked you to identify the thoughts of a drone operator.

Do you not agree that political party born out of terrorism is a preferred route, especially if the violence STOPS?

I do agree. They may also have insights into the motivations/justifications/thoughts of the terrorists who enabled them to gain political power.

- - - - - -

I asked you a question in august, and I'm still waiting for your answer.

The Taliban have already returned to power in Afghanistan.

Where's your answer?

 

[stokes234]

You seem to be ignoring everything I told you about what would happen every time Israel would give up territory after the "peace" accord. It would instantly be attacked from there.

I'm not ignoring it, i'm just pointing out why your claim that "they've already tried that for 17 years" was in fact, entirely wrong. Israel havn't tried not expanding into palestinian territory for a long time, and so we don't know whether that would prevent or at least reduce fundamentalist attacks.

fundamentalists are bad

You're making the mistake of assuming I support the fundamentalist palestinians. I don't see hamas as heroes, or any of the terrorist organisations. I see them as bad people, worse in many ways than the israeli government. But the average palestinian has a right to live without being forced out of his home by an expanding israel, and that is what I am supporting. The prevention of rocket attacks won't be achieved by israeli expansion unless the palestinians are irradicated, which I also do not want to see.

The alternative -- to admit to yourself that, for years, you were a sucker who supported "peace-loving moderates" who in reality just wanted the territory so they can continue to kill Jews -- is too shameful to contemplate, apparently.

No, actually your mind-reading capabilities are terrible and better placed in the "challenge jref" section. I've never supported the fundamentalists, but I do support the majority of palestinians who just want to live their lives without being displaced by an expanding israel.

 

[Thunder]

I've never supported the fundamentalists, but I do support the majority of palestinians who just want to live their lives without being displaced by an expanding israel.

well said.

one can support the right of the Palestinian people to their own independent state, without supporting extremist ideologies and politics.

just as one can support the right of a Jewish state to exist, without supporting the current right-wing fascist agenda.

 

[IDB87]

I said: "Pakistan's ISI"

Sidelining a few agents makes no difference to overall policy. It's window dressing.

Yes, you did at first say Pakistan's ISI. The last sentence you claimed

Pakistan is a much-praised participant and supposed ally in the "War Against Terror".

The ISI is essentially its' own entity. It's been referred to as a 'state within a state' to the point where the President does not have control over it or the military.

How do you know this? From what I've read many suicide bombers are avenging the death of family members or attacks on their community.

So in their grief, they strap a bomb on, have their friends get out a camera, and walk into a mosque or market...to avenge their loved ones. If these suicide murders were were aimed 100% at the occupying military, you may have a point.

You are still attempting to defend murder and nihilism. It is quite disgusting, actually.

Drone operators do kill civilians on a regular basis. At least one in three killed by US drones in Pakistan is a civilian.

Make a thread about it, you have a point regarding excessive civilian deaths. There is no parallel between suicide murder and these drone attacks. Sorry.

You ludicrously claimed to be able to identify the thoughts of suicide bombers and now, also, those of Hamas and the IRA terrorists. That's why I asked you to identify the thoughts of a drone operator.

It isn't all that hard to understand what drives these murderers. Nihilism, tribal absolutism, religious indoctrination. But since I never claimed to 'identify the thoughts of the IRA and Hamas' this is a bit silly. I simply said they were both terrorist groups who, if they spawned political parties, would do much more for themselves than using proxy bombs and suicide murder as a tactic to achieve statehood.

I do agree. They may also have insights into the motivations/justifications/thoughts of the terrorists who enabled them to gain political power.

Wait. Do you think Irgun/Lehi actually....enabled the Jews to gain political power? Their tactics were despised (and not effective) and they were forcibly integrated into the IDF at the start of the war.

Silly.

 

[Pardalis]

The Taliban have already returned to power in Afghanistan.

Where's your answer?

That's not an answer to my question. Try again.

 

[portlandatheist]

Remember the folks who claimed that rocket attacks would decrease if Israel left Gaza?

 

[mortimer]

Remember the folks who claimed that rocket attacks would decrease if Israel left Gaza?
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=390&pictureid=3743[/qimg]

Meh, what's a few dead Israelis when compared to Gaza's lack of crayons and cheeze-doodles?

 

[The Fool]

Remember the folks who claimed that rocket attacks would decrease if Israel left Gaza?
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=390&pictureid=3743[/qimg]

no...name a few.

 

[Thunder]

Remember the folks who claimed that rocket attacks would decrease if Israel left Gaza?

no, I don't recall folks saying if Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza without negotiating any security framework with the Palestinians, that rocket attacks would decrease.

 

[Skeptic]

Remember the folks who claimed that rocket attacks would decrease if Israel left Gaza?

The answer to that is, "think of the long run!". Seems to mean, "let's ignore all facts that don't fit with my dogma!".

As in:

- "Hey, where's Jesus / the Messiah / prophet X who died 20 / 200 / 2000 years ago promising to come back? He said he would return soon!"
- "Think of the long run!"

 

[bigjelmapro]

no, I don't recall folks saying if Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza without negotiating any security framework with the Palestinians, that rocket attacks would decrease.

Who said Israel didn't negotiate?

Withdrawing under fire is the standard tactic employed to give the impression that those doing the firing are the victors. Nothing new here.

 

[Virus]

So now the missile attacks are Israel's fault for not negotiating a security framework?

Be honest Parky, in 2005 when the withdrawal from Gaza was being discussed were you arguing that the settlers and checkpoints should stay until a security framework is negotiated?

 

[Thunder]

Be honest Parky, in 2005 when the withdrawal from Gaza was being discussed were you arguing that the settlers and checkpoints should stay until a security framework is negotiated?

I joined JREF in late 2006, so I have no idea.