Islam in Britain - One Year Later

Ziggurat said:
There's at least one schuck, the reprehensible George Galloway, who I think does indeed support Muslim terrorism. More generally, though, If I couldn't find any quotes by those politicians later on in which they named names, then I would indeed wonder whether they took the problem seriously.
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You too have not "named names". Do you "indeed wonder" whether you are "taking the problem seriously"?

See what I mean about your "whacky illogic"?

This is nutty, nutty stuff.
 
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Okay, has any Muslim organization or Muslim political leader condemned al Qaeda by name?

Has any Muslim organization or Muslim political leader condemned Hamas by name?
 
By the way, can anyone show me where GWB read the list of the names of the 9/11 terrorists.

WELL THEN HE MUST BE ON THEIR SIDE!

Call the Loose Changers and tell them you can help with their conspiracy theory.
 
Dr Adequate said:
Just as I, being white, should have named the Brixton bomber, and you, being right-wing, should have said just who was behind Oklahoma?
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I do not know or care about your ethnicity. You apparently don't know my political beliefs. If, however, I was unwilling to say Timothy McVeigh was the criminal responsible for the Oklahoma bombing, and that he deserved the harshest punishment for that heinous crime, then yes, you would have grounds to suspect me. If pundits for any political faction in the US were unwilling to condemn him by name, then yes, you would be right to be suspicious of whether or not they truly opposed what he did. But that didn't happen. He got personally damned, and rightly so, from pretty much every direction, and the only people who didn't (the hard-core militia advocates) got subsequently marginalized.

Well, you've tried to set the bar impossibly high, but ...

If our security services had taken this warning seriously enough, 7/7 might have been averted.
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It's encouraging to hear that such warnings came from the Muslim community. It is discouraging that such condemnation of radicals by name is not done publicly. Given the opinion polls, there are most certainly similarly radicalized youths in the community right now. But names are never named. I think the reason is clear: the moderates do not feel safe enough to do so. They can condemn the actual violence, but they cannot condemn the radicalism which leads to the violence. And for the same reason, they will not name names, because that implicates not only the crime, but the criminal.

I will note that I've been challenged again and again on my standard, but nobody has actually provided the kind of statements I asked for, nor has anyone conceded that they cannot find such quotes. Seems to me like nobody wants to actually confront that issue. :covereyes
 
Dr Adequate said:
By the way, can anyone show me where GWB read the list of the names of the 9/11 terrorists.
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I never asked for a comprehensive list of all terrorists. I asked for ANY terrorist to be named. And you've got to be kidding me if you think Bush hasn't used the names of terrorists in major speeches. This is a pathetic argument on your part. Why did you even bother? Were you really so convinced of your cleverness that you just had to post this meaningless tripe? That's just sad, really.
 
BPSCG said:
Okay, has any Muslim organization or Muslim political leader condemned al Qaeda by name?
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Why don't you try to find out, rather than resting on the Argument From Ignorance?

Try here.

That took all of a millisecond to find on google.

You didn't try.
 
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"It's encouraging to hear that such warnings came from the Muslim community. It is discouraging that such condemnation of radicals by name is not done publicly. Given the opinion polls, there are most certainly similarly radicalized youths in the community right now. But names are never named. I think the reason is clear: the moderates do not feel safe enough to do so. They can condemn the actual violence, but they cannot condemn the radicalism which leads to the violence. And for the same reason, they will not name names, because that implicates not only the crime, but the criminal."


Either that or they do not actually know their names in the first place. I am from an irish UK family and I ca tell you for certain that the Priests at our church used to condemn the IRA but they did not condmen particular people, they condemned the whole organisation.
 
Ziggurat said:
I never asked for a comprehensive list of all terrorists. I asked for ANY terrorist to be named. And you've got to be kidding me if you think Bush hasn't used the names of terrorists in major speeches.
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So, you are able to give no examples whatsoever?

BTW, are you trying to "kid" me that no moderate Muslim has ever "used the name" of any of the 7/7 bombers? If not, what is your point?

This is a pathetic argument on your part. Why did you even bother? Were you really so convinced of your cleverness that you just had to post this meaningless tripe? That's just sad, really.
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Er ... when you spew this out, who are you trying to convince?

And what gave you the idea that this was a substitute for argument?
 
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Dr Adequate said:
You too have not "named names".
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Sure I have. I have, for example, refered to bin Laden and Zarqawi plenty of times. I've even named lesser-known terrorists such as Abu Abbas or Abu Nidal. I could even provide you such quotes, or you could just do a search on this forum yourself. Not to mention, I'm not even holding any one individual to this standard, but provided a much looser request: I want A muslim community leader to condemn muslim terrorists by name, I never asked that each of them, or even that a particular leader, do that (which is the equivalent when you narrow the request to me personally).

Now, can you provide quotes where a muslim community leader condemn muslim terrorists by name? If you cannot, a simple "no" will do.
 
Ziggurat said:
...snip...

Now, can you provide quotes where a muslim community leader condemn muslim terrorists by name? If you cannot, a simple "no" will do.
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You have made the claim that the Muslim leaders that have been quoted here condemning terrorism say something different in their mosques (in Arabic) therefore it is actually up to you to provide evidence for your claim.
 
Dcdrac said:
Either that or they do not actually know their names in the first place. I am from an irish UK family and I ca tell you for certain that the Priests at our church used to condemn the IRA but they did not condmen particular people, they condemned the whole organisation.
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But this is merely a fact.

For people like Ziggurat, that's like water off a duck's back.
 
Dcdrac said:
Either that or they do not actually know their names in the first place.
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They damned well do know the names after the fact. And the also know the names of radicals before the fact, because a whole lot of radicals don't hide their radicalism. The term "Londonistan" wasn't coined by right-wing Americans, it was coined by the French.

I am from an irish UK family and I ca tell you for certain that the Priests at our church used to condemn the IRA but they did not condmen particular people, they condemned the whole organisation.
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But I don't even see the parallel to that happening either. Where are the public condemnations of Hamas, Hezballah, or Islamic Jihad? I've never seen any. Maybe you can find some of Al Qaeda, but that's probably it.
 
Ziggurat said:
Sure I have. I have, for example, refered to bin Laden and Zarqawi plenty of times. I've even named lesser-known terrorists such as Abu Abbas or Abu Nidal.
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Whoopsie, there was I thinking we were talking about 7/7. Oh look, we were.

Now, can you provide quotes where a muslim community leader condemn muslim terrorists by name? If you cannot, a simple "no" will do.
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I have already done so.

You could learn a lot by READING my posts instead of posting a load of meaningless drivel that has no relation to what I've posted.
 
Dr Adequate said:
Whoopsie, there was I thinking we were talking about 7/7. Oh look, we were.
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Actually, no. I was talking much more generally, which means that it should be much easier to meet my request. I want quotes from muslim leaders condemning terrorists by name. I never said, and it's not my fault if you imagined, that I require them to name any one particular terrorist by name.

I have already done so.
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I see you posted a link about the report to police, which was not public. I see no public statements being made which name and condemn terrorists by name. If you are referring to a different post, please refer to it either with a link, a quote, or a post number.
 
Dr Adequate said:
Why don't you try to find out, rather than resting on the Argument From Ignorance?

Try here.

That took all of a millisecond to find on google.

You didn't try.
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Oh. I see you misunderstood what I meant when I asked, "Okay, has any Muslim organization or Muslim political leader condemned al Qaeda by name?"

I clicked on the first ten links in your cite. One of them required a password, blocking any further inquiries.

Of the remaining nine, eight did not name al Qaeda; they in fact did not mention al Qaeda at all (to eliminate the possibility of multiple spellings, I did a CTRL-F for "al Q"). Maybe you want to take more than a millisecond in your search next time, hm?

The only one that mentioned al Qaeda was this one. It is, admirably, a fatwa against al Qaeda and bin Laden, and was declared March 11, 2005, the day of the Madrid bombings. The translator notes that "I believe this the first fatwa ever to be issued by an European Muslim organization against a terrorist group."

That's one. More than five years since September 11, 2001, and there's one statement by Muslims leaders denouncing al Qaeda by name.
 
Even Ziggurat's sig is a hateful paranoid delusion.

Which he keeps there while discussing 7/7.

While discussing 7/7/.

"Certainly not one government in Europe ... We need this hot lesson of general hatred."

That is appropriate when discussing 7/7?

You rave and froth and foam and I will love your country --- but not you.
 
Where are the public condemnations of Hamas
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Almost certainly not from the MCB, given their ideological and personal links to Hamas. The MCB are not what I would call 'moderate', though certainly more personable than AQ or the headbangers in al muhajiroun. Scratch their surface and you will find wannabe theocrats with a mile wide antisemitic streak.

As a point of contact that might help us prevent domestic terrorism, they may be useful, but don't think for a minute that they represent a progressive strain of Islam.
 
BPSCG said:
The only one that mentioned al Qaeda was this one. It is, admirably, a fatwa against al Qaeda and bin Laden, and was declared March 11, 2005, the day of the Madrid bombings. The translator notes that "I believe this the first fatwa ever to be issued by an European Muslim organization against a terrorist group."

That's one. More than five years since September 11, 2001, and there's one statement by Muslims leaders denouncing al Qaeda by name.
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Oh look, the Argument From Ignorance again.

I guess that you wish to complain to me that Muslims Are Evil. In fact, you are complaining to me that you haven't done your homework.

By the way, do you want to shift the goalposts again? I notice that you're losing, and I'm happy to oblige.
 
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