Islam in Britain - One Year Later

[RyanRoberts]

why aren't American Muslims or Canadian Muslims

Have you been living under a rock?

Do you mean "Islamists" or "Muslims?" Either way, some evidence would be nice

here

The Pew poll found that British Muslims are far more likely than their European counterparts to harbour conspiracy theories about the September 11 attacks. Only 17% believed that Arabs were involved, compared with 48% in France.

I think that probably counts as an ever so slight inclination to believe conspiracy theories. Though given the ability of many of the Muslims I have personally encountered to believe crazy things I don't find it surprising.

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Except that religious bodies have to be persuaded that it's in some way in their interests to cough up large amounts of money to subsidise public education; that there can be something different about the schools they fund.

You misunderstand the faith schools proposal. The taxpayer will still be funding them (as they do with existing faith schools) - being a faith school allows you to operate discriminatory policies in admission and teacher recruitment, results in fewer pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds attending and allows the religion government sponsored access to indoctrinate the children.

Do you really think it will be that hard to persuade the religions they get the good end of this deal while leaving the taxpayer picking up the bills?

 

[richardm]

Except that religious bodies have to be persuaded that it's in some way in their interests to cough up large amounts of money to subsidise public education; that there can be something different about the schools they fund.

I'm not sure about this. I think that the majority of Catholic schools, for example, are local authority maintained; that is to say they're entirely paid for by the government. There are some independent Catholic schools like Ampleforth that are funded by the Benedictine order (or more accurately by the fees paid to the order by parents), but that's effectively a public school in the private sense so the order doesn't have to be persuaded of anything.

I would expect - don't know - that the same situation applies to other religious groups.

 

[Dr Adequate]

I did. And not one of them names a single terrorist by name. So I don't know why you keep telling me to look at the quotes, because it was precisely this aspect of those quotes which I was commenting on.

These are statements released immediately after 7/7.

NO-ONE KNEW the names of the terrorists.

Damn, the stupid postures you contort yourself into in order to hate Muslims.

 

[Mephisto]

I don't understand your question or your point.

I'm wondering why, if we lumping all Muslims together, Muslims from the U.S. or other countries are NOT as terrorist-prone if Islam is actually an ideology masquerading as a religion?

 

[BPSCG]

I'm wondering why, if we lumping all Muslims together, Muslims from the U.S. or other countries are NOT as terrorist-prone if Islam is actually an ideology masquerading as a religion?

Who is "lumping all Muslims together"?

 

[Mephisto]

Have you been living under a rock?

Then you CAN provide examples of Muslims in the U.S. or Bolivia rioting or engaging in terrorist acts?

I think that probably counts as an ever so slight inclination to believe conspiracy theories. Though given the ability of many of the Muslims I have personally encountered to believe crazy things I don't find it surprising.

I don't believe in conspiracy theories, but I think those who believe all Muslims are potential terrorists might.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Yes, of course. Most leaders in the middle east came out to give sympathy after the series of attacks from 911 through the london bombings saying that it did not represent true Islam only to give examples of why we deserved it later.

No.

Perhaps, later, they tried to explain the underlying tensions and grievances.

Look, the Brutush ulemas issued a fatwa against the terrorists. What more do you want? Has any terrorist-supporting cleric done that?

I did and I'm glad they are speaking out. Not sure how a handful of quotes=protests of the masses, but ok.

Well, those are British Muslims' religious and secular leaders and representatives.

Your attitude reminds me of this crazy article I once read saying that every gay man was obliged to speak out against paedophilia in public or bear moral responsibility for it. 'Cos, y'know, some "gay" mean are paedophiles. The author of the article did not extend the same reasoning to "straight" men for reasons which, ooh, pass all understanding. What? Does every British Muslim have to walk around with a placard saying "Murder is wrong" or be branded a terrorist?

After the Brixton bombings, I didn't feel the need to publically protest that, although I'm white, I don't approve of killing black people. I assumed this could be taken as read. I'm part Irish Catholic (on my mother's side). Is there something I should be doing?

Sheesh.

It is hard to take them serious and I know they might speak for most muslims, but they are severely overshadowed by the masses that take the streets to cheer when westerners die.

Not down my way. Like I said, I live in Leicester, which has loads of Muslims. I assure you, no-one celebrated 9/11 or 7/7 in public.

Like I said earlier, the streets in Chicago (where i am) were filled with people celebrating on 911, not protesting the acts of a "minority".

Yuck. However, I question your use of the word "filled", or your ability to compute these people as a percentage of your total Muslim population.

My main point was the overwhelming population that comes out to cheer when something bad happens to the west despite the numbers that condem the action.

In Chicago.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Who is "lumping all Muslims together"?

Anyone who uses the word "Muslims" to mean "the enemy".

Try searching this forum for examples.

 

[BPSCG]

I'm wondering why, if we lumping all Muslims together, Muslims from the U.S. or other countries are NOT as terrorist-prone if Islam is actually an ideology masquerading as a religion?

Who is "lumping all Muslims together"?

Anyone who uses the word "Muslims" to mean "the enemy".

Try searching this forum for examples.

Since Mephisto was addressing me, how do you get "lumping all Muslims together" from

...do you think, from your vantage on the east side of the Atlantic, that British Islam is an ideology masquerading as a religious faith?

 

[Dr Adequate]

Since Mephisto was addressing me, how do you get "lumping all Muslims together" from

I didn't: I merely answered your question.

 

[BPSCG]

I didn't: I merely answered your question.

???

 

[Dr Adequate]

I'm not claiming they made that statement. I'm saying I cannot tell that they don't think that, I'm not in the mood to give them the benefit of the doubt, and that in order to convince ME that they really DO oppose terrorism, they've got to name the actual terrorists (which really isn't a great burden on them at all). It's really that simple.

Just as I, being white, should have named the Brixton bomber, and you, being right-wing, should have said just who was behind Oklahoma? That wouldn't have been "a great burden on us", right? We could just have employed our magical powers of telepathic knowledge of anyone who is similar to us in any way, and that's it, job done.

Riiiiiiiight.

Well, you've tried to set the bar impossibly high, but ...

How wrong can you get?

If our security services had taken this warning seriously enough, 7/7 might have been averted.

From the article referenced :

The mosque's trustees were so disturbed that they raised their concerns with the police.

On 24 July 2003, they wrote a letter to the deputy borough commander at Brixton police. The letter accuses Hamdi Isaac and his associates of "inciting racial and religious hatred", "spreading extremist views" and "harassing, intimidating, physically abusing and threatening the management" of the mosque.

The letter makes it explicit: "They have an agenda to turn this Centre into another Finsbury Park". Attached to that was a diary, kept by a trustee, of incidents of threats and intimidation.- one July the 1st, for example, police were called after threats from Hamdi Isaac and another man known as Habib.

 

[RyanRoberts]

Muslims in the U.S or bolivia

The Muslim population of bolivia is negligible, at least according to

http://www.factbook.net/muslim_pop.php

And there have been a fair few plots and funding attempts uncovered in the U.S.

I don't believe in conspiracy theories, but I think those who believe all Muslims are potential terrorists might.

Personally, I don't believe anything of the sort. But that doesn't change the fact that becoming a super soldier in the service of Allah is a worryingly real option for many Muslims in the UK.

I also have something of a personal prejudice that I should probably confess in these matters. I attended an inner city college with a majority population of working class Muslims where I was repeatedly assaulted (including the attempted dropping of a brick on my head from a 3rd floor window) after making a stink about the purchase of a prayer room at a school that could not afford textbooks. I know that this had more to do with gang identity and the idiocy of youth than theology but it colours my perception of Islam at least as much as later conversations and reading revealed the political and moral stance of many observant Muslims to me, along with current affairs.

 

[Dr Adequate]

???

You asked "who is lumping all Muslims together?"

Many people do so.

 

[Dr Adequate]

And there have been a fair few plots and funding attempts uncovered in the U.S.

Not to mention NORAID^WP.

 

[Ziggurat]

These are statements released immediately after 7/7.

NO-ONE KNEW the names of the terrorists.

And since the identities have become public knowledge, have they condemned them by name? Not that I'm aware of. If they have, then all you need to do to convince me is show me such quotes. If they have not, then the fact that you chose quotes from prior to their identities being known makes no difference to my point.

Damn, the stupid postures you contort yourself into in order to hate Muslims.

Funny, but Muslims are themselves the primary victims of Muslim radicalism. It is not charity, kindness, or understanding towards Muslims to underestimate the threat, or the pervasiveness, of such radicalism. And why is it that because you think I'm wrong, I must somehow be hateful?

 

[Darat]

So I take it we should actually consider that all these people are supporting the Muslim terrorists as well? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4661627.stm

Not one of them named names.

 

[Ziggurat]

So I take it we should actually consider that all these people are supporting the Muslim terrorists as well? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4661627.stm

Not one of them named names.

There's at least one schuck, the reprehensible George Galloway, who I think does indeed support Muslim terrorism. More generally, though, If I couldn't find any quotes by those politicians later on in which they named names, then I would indeed wonder whether they took the problem seriously. Are you suggesting it's hard to find such quotes? Because I am suggesting that it's hard to find such quotes from Muslim community leaders, and all you have to do to prove me wrong is find some. Hell, to start with, why not just find one?

 

[Dr Adequate]

And since the identities have become public knowledge, have they condemned them by name? Not that I'm aware of.

THEN READ THE LINK I KEEP POSTING.

"Not that I'm aware of" is the Creationists' Defence, or, to give it its formal name, the "argument from ignorance".

Also, nor have you "condemned them by name". So I take it you supported 7/7. Oh, wait.

Nor have I.

Funny, but Muslims are themselves the primary victims of Muslim radicalism.

And they know that.

It is not charity, kindness, or understanding towards Muslims to underestimate the threat, or the pervasiveness, of such radicalism. And why is it that because you think I'm wrong, I must somehow be hateful?

Because of the way you are wrong.

No-one would blabber out this whacky illogic in public, against all the facts, without some sort of agenda.