Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2001
- Messages
- 28,828
Before getting into the "fact or fiction" question, keep in mind that it is possible that everything that is described on the site actually happened. That, however, does not mean that they are eligible for the $1,000,000 (as was explained in previous posts). The good news is that they can easily apply again and participate in constructing an agreed-upon protocol.
I am leaning more towards the fiction classification because they claim to have photos, affidavits, and correspondence, yet none of these things is posted on the site.
As for the offer that they will repeat the proceedure if JREF pays for the airfare, I find that somewhat dodgy. Someone with such an amazing power should have no trouble raising transatlantic airfare. Even if they believe that there is no $1,000,000, then proving the power and not receiving the money would pave the way to a potentially lucrative lawsuit.
Lastly, do you understand why any test of finding buried items is meaningless unless the people who witness the burying are not present during the dowsing phase?
I had a look at the mirror site - here are my views:
- the information about the 'successful' challenge is only found by clicking on a picture of James Randi. There is no statement that this is a link. Poor design!
- as others have remarked, the authors of the site are anonymous. Hard to tell what their qualifications are.
- they give a quote (anonymous) from the JREF forums about the Sylvia Brown protocol, and demand the JREF answer it. Well this post is part of the forums. So if I say 'the Guardians are a silly bunch, who have no idea of what a scientific test is', presumably the Guardians would accept that?!
- they follow some curious logic about the after effects of a successful Million Dollar Challenge. Apparently the JREF would be 'shown up' and be 'embarrassed'. Golly. A major new scientific advance, ratified by careful testing, resulting in world-wide publicity - and this would be bad for the JREF?!
- they boldly claim 'There are many things that JREF cannot accept, or explain, such as when someone gets a premonition of a disaster before it happens, or the time when you are half asleep and you just know the phone is going to ring…and it does.'
Ah yes. And of course nobody ever gets a premonition of disaster just before it doesn't happen.
- Now to the 'amazing test' that proved that paranormal powers exist. Yes, it's dowsing! Here is a key sentence: " in some way as yet unknown to science, the human body is able to respond to some elements, and that through involuntary mussel movements, the “dowser” makes the dowsing rod move."
Something fishy about the spelling there methinks!
Still this test was supervised by 'a Vicar, 2 policemen, the late Norris McQuirter, two scientists from Leeds University and a local land owner.'
Oh, look, more anonymity.
I presume they mean Norris Mcwhirter, who co-authored the Guinness Book of Records. There is nothing in that book of World Records about dowsing.
- they claim 'the test itself was without doubt secure and the dowser could not have known where things were buried.' Absolute rubbish. As Ladewig pointed out, since the people who buried the objects were present when the dowser tried to find them, the 'test' is meaningless.
So we sum up with the news that an anonymous badly laid out website has the 'complete proof' of a paranormal power, based on a single anonymous unscientific test.
Next...
- the information about the 'successful' challenge is only found by clicking on a picture of James Randi. There is no statement that this is a link. Poor design!
- as others have remarked, the authors of the site are anonymous. Hard to tell what their qualifications are.
- they give a quote (anonymous) from the JREF forums about the Sylvia Brown protocol, and demand the JREF answer it. Well this post is part of the forums. So if I say 'the Guardians are a silly bunch, who have no idea of what a scientific test is', presumably the Guardians would accept that?!
- they follow some curious logic about the after effects of a successful Million Dollar Challenge. Apparently the JREF would be 'shown up' and be 'embarrassed'. Golly. A major new scientific advance, ratified by careful testing, resulting in world-wide publicity - and this would be bad for the JREF?!
- they boldly claim 'There are many things that JREF cannot accept, or explain, such as when someone gets a premonition of a disaster before it happens, or the time when you are half asleep and you just know the phone is going to ring…and it does.'
Ah yes. And of course nobody ever gets a premonition of disaster just before it doesn't happen.
- Now to the 'amazing test' that proved that paranormal powers exist. Yes, it's dowsing! Here is a key sentence: " in some way as yet unknown to science, the human body is able to respond to some elements, and that through involuntary mussel movements, the “dowser” makes the dowsing rod move."
Something fishy about the spelling there methinks!
Still this test was supervised by 'a Vicar, 2 policemen, the late Norris McQuirter, two scientists from Leeds University and a local land owner.'
Oh, look, more anonymity.
I presume they mean Norris Mcwhirter, who co-authored the Guinness Book of Records. There is nothing in that book of World Records about dowsing.
- they claim 'the test itself was without doubt secure and the dowser could not have known where things were buried.' Absolute rubbish. As Ladewig pointed out, since the people who buried the objects were present when the dowser tried to find them, the 'test' is meaningless.
So we sum up with the news that an anonymous badly laid out website has the 'complete proof' of a paranormal power, based on a single anonymous unscientific test.
Next...
Questioninggeller
Illuminator
- Joined
- May 11, 2002
- Messages
- 3,048
Dragon3 said:
As we suspected the "mirror site," which is only "temporary" isn't updated with anymore "frauds," hasn't moved to a new server nor has it been updated with other mirror sites (which is custom for a true mirror site).
What a very weak attempt to attack the JREF.
When you post lies on the internet and try to pass them off as truth you should be held accountable through legal means.
Questioninggeller
Illuminator
- Joined
- May 11, 2002
- Messages
- 3,048
Re: Ok lets go there shall we Mr Kramer?
Do you know what an IP address is?
You can trace emails and people who post:
http://www.dnsstuff.com./
Dragon3 said:
Do you know what an IP address is?
You can trace emails and people who post:
http://www.dnsstuff.com./
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
I also notice that they are using the JREF banner at the top of the pages on Randi!
I must report this forwith!
I must report this forwith!
This is what they have said.
Hi all ^_^
Here is an update for you. This is the email I got from them when I sent them questions.
############COPY#########
Dear Mary,
Thank you for your emails to us over the site and the information we posted on JREF.
I must admit that I find it very amusing that JREF are threatening us or at least posturing on that stance. There are many reasons why they cannot take us to court, one of which is because we simply tell the story as we find it, with due consideration to the other side of the coin of cause. And I do believe that even in America you cannot get hauled through court for expressing what you think over a subject..especially when the information you present is correct!
However, we would love JREF to try and take us to court, because they would find rather rapidly that they don’t have a preverbal leg to stand on, and they have very little grounds to do so anyway. So we tend to ignore people like them when they start to threaten as it shows us that we hit a nerve and they are just wanting us to shut up as we are causing them potential embarrassment.
What is surprising is that we have only just got any feed back form anyone connected to JREF. The article (and its variants) have been posted on our main site at least 6 times now over the years, and JREF never bothered with them then.
But you do pose some good questions to us over what you have said has been posted on the JREF forums, and they deserve detailed answers. So in light of all the emails you have sent us we will be posting a special update on our main board next week which will answer all your points. I am sure that no matter what is said, that JREF will still refuse to acknowledge anything, and I am equally sure that the deluded members of the JREF forum who “tow the party line” will also ignore that facts.
But we will post everything for them and JREF and you, and we will see what JREF decide to do then.
Regards
Mick Dunk
Member Liaison Officer
########################
I dont know their main site but I emailed them today and asked them for the link and why they have not posted it yet.
Hi all ^_^
Here is an update for you. This is the email I got from them when I sent them questions.
############COPY#########
Dear Mary,
Thank you for your emails to us over the site and the information we posted on JREF.
I must admit that I find it very amusing that JREF are threatening us or at least posturing on that stance. There are many reasons why they cannot take us to court, one of which is because we simply tell the story as we find it, with due consideration to the other side of the coin of cause. And I do believe that even in America you cannot get hauled through court for expressing what you think over a subject..especially when the information you present is correct!
However, we would love JREF to try and take us to court, because they would find rather rapidly that they don’t have a preverbal leg to stand on, and they have very little grounds to do so anyway. So we tend to ignore people like them when they start to threaten as it shows us that we hit a nerve and they are just wanting us to shut up as we are causing them potential embarrassment.
What is surprising is that we have only just got any feed back form anyone connected to JREF. The article (and its variants) have been posted on our main site at least 6 times now over the years, and JREF never bothered with them then.
But you do pose some good questions to us over what you have said has been posted on the JREF forums, and they deserve detailed answers. So in light of all the emails you have sent us we will be posting a special update on our main board next week which will answer all your points. I am sure that no matter what is said, that JREF will still refuse to acknowledge anything, and I am equally sure that the deluded members of the JREF forum who “tow the party line” will also ignore that facts.
But we will post everything for them and JREF and you, and we will see what JREF decide to do then.
Regards
Mick Dunk
Member Liaison Officer
########################
I dont know their main site but I emailed them today and asked them for the link and why they have not posted it yet.
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
Hey they got a preverbal leg, mine aren't even babbling yet.
walthrup48
Unregistered
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2001
- Messages
- 1,087
Re: This is what they have said.
Has the JREF contacted them privately? No posters in this thread are authorised to speak on behalf of the JREF bar KRAMER and Linda and as far as I can see, they haven't touched on anything at all that could be construed as threatening legal action.
Where on earth did they get this impression from?
Has the JREF contacted them privately? No posters in this thread are authorised to speak on behalf of the JREF bar KRAMER and Linda and as far as I can see, they haven't touched on anything at all that could be construed as threatening legal action.
This is something to look forward to. Will it be sensible and careful responses or the same ol' groundless criticisms rehashed? Here's to hoping.
Oh dear. This does not bode well.
Re: This is what they have said.
Hi - rather then burdening them with separate emails left right and centre I was wondering if you could ask them the names of the participants such as the Vicar and the two scientists? Also the name of the solicitor holding the affidavits since, like they have done, I’d like to check on them myself.
Dragon3 said:
Hi - rather then burdening them with separate emails left right and centre I was wondering if you could ask them the names of the participants such as the Vicar and the two scientists? Also the name of the solicitor holding the affidavits since, like they have done, I’d like to check on them myself.
An Infinite Ocean
Thinker
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2003
- Messages
- 235
Hah, I remember Grapevine. It'd be really sad if the writers of the mag turned out to be such a bunch of halfwitted drips.
Oh, and it does appear that Kramer owes an apology to Dragon3 after his misunderstanding-laden posts.
Oh, and it does appear that Kramer owes an apology to Dragon3 after his misunderstanding-laden posts.
Re: This is what they have said.
Thanks for doing that, although as Ladewig, JimTheBrit and Darat have already pointed out:
- who has threatened them?
- why would anyone take them to court?
- why don't they give details like the names of the witnesses?
I add myself:
They claim they want to ignore the JREF's 'threats', yet simultaneously express amazement that nobody has noticed them for years.
Why would anyone be bothered by an anonymous poorly laid out website with unsupported claims?
They claim I am 'deluded' and 'follow a party line'. Gosh.
I do believe in scientific testing, but post here at JREF because i find it interesting. I have no financial or business connection with JREF.
Finally I think that they will fail to provide clear scientific evidence of their amazing claim.
Dragon3 said:
Thanks for doing that, although as Ladewig, JimTheBrit and Darat have already pointed out:
- who has threatened them?
- why would anyone take them to court?
- why don't they give details like the names of the witnesses?
I add myself:
They claim they want to ignore the JREF's 'threats', yet simultaneously express amazement that nobody has noticed them for years.
Why would anyone be bothered by an anonymous poorly laid out website with unsupported claims?
They claim I am 'deluded' and 'follow a party line'. Gosh.
I do believe in scientific testing, but post here at JREF because i find it interesting. I have no financial or business connection with JREF.
Finally I think that they will fail to provide clear scientific evidence of their amazing claim.
Aardvark_DK
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2002
- Messages
- 448
I'd like to second Ladewig. Hopefully Dragon3 will be able to respond soon.Ladewig said:
Maybe we could also have the link to their main site - surely it should be up by now?
Sorry all 
Hi all ^_^
Sorry I have not been about but work is hell at the mo!
I put the questions that everyone on this thread said about it. Like names, contact numbers, etc. I also sent them snips of what some of ya said over the website and stuff like that.
I don’t think they were meaning that everyone who posts here is deluded and follows the party line, I just think they mean people who don’t want to listen to anything else from anyone else except JREF.
But I may be wrong.
I emailed them again Friday as I got this from them on the same day:
“Hello Mary,
I just thought I would let you know that there has been a slight delay in the site. It is nothing to do with us, but our host is upgrading their servers and they have said it will be about 48 hours before we are back on-line.
I will let you know when we are.
Regards
Mick Dunk
Member Liaison Officer”
So they should be up on Monday sometime and I hope they send the link cos I cant wait to take a look.
Hi all ^_^
Sorry I have not been about but work is hell at the mo!
I put the questions that everyone on this thread said about it. Like names, contact numbers, etc. I also sent them snips of what some of ya said over the website and stuff like that.
I don’t think they were meaning that everyone who posts here is deluded and follows the party line, I just think they mean people who don’t want to listen to anything else from anyone else except JREF.
But I may be wrong.
I emailed them again Friday as I got this from them on the same day:
“Hello Mary,
I just thought I would let you know that there has been a slight delay in the site. It is nothing to do with us, but our host is upgrading their servers and they have said it will be about 48 hours before we are back on-line.
I will let you know when we are.
Regards
Mick Dunk
Member Liaison Officer”
So they should be up on Monday sometime and I hope they send the link cos I cant wait to take a look.
Re: Sorry all
Thanks.
It's an interesting reaction, which says a lot about them.
Their first thought is to claim that there are deluded people here at JREF who follow a party line. Before, for example, they even give the name of any witnesses to the dowsing.
I hope you won't be disappointed....
Dragon3 said:Hi all ^_^
Sorry I have not been about but work is hell at the mo!
I put the questions that everyone on this thread said about it. Like names, contact numbers, etc. I also sent them snips of what some of ya said over the website and stuff like that.
Thanks.
Dragon3 said:I don’t think they were meaning that everyone who posts here is deluded and follows the party line, I just think they mean people who don’t want to listen to anything else from anyone else except JREF.
But I may be wrong.
It's an interesting reaction, which says a lot about them.
Their first thought is to claim that there are deluded people here at JREF who follow a party line. Before, for example, they even give the name of any witnesses to the dowsing.
Dragon3 said:
I hope you won't be disappointed....
I tried the site today, but got a message that I wasn't a registered user. I really think the Guardians should do better!
Next, the only named witness (mispelled, but why else would they name just him if he wasn't famous), Norris McWhirter, died in April this year. His obituary, which covered many topics, doesn't even mention the world shattering news that he had witnessed the first complete proof of a paranormal event.
Perhaps he forgot to tell anyone...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...1.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/04/21/ixportal.html
Next, the only named witness (mispelled, but why else would they name just him if he wasn't famous), Norris McWhirter, died in April this year. His obituary, which covered many topics, doesn't even mention the world shattering news that he had witnessed the first complete proof of a paranormal event.
Perhaps he forgot to tell anyone...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...1.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/04/21/ixportal.html
NoZed Avenger
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2002
- Messages
- 11,286
Dragon3 said:
hmm: As of 6/17:
How lucky that you, a person completely unrelated to the web site, just happened to locate that particular site within a few days of it being placed on the web.
Thanks for bringing it to everyone's attention, as no one would have ever seen the obscure site if you hadn't happened to find it.
Err. Come to think of it, the site was apparently not registered with any of the major search engines; I tried a number of searches using terms related to JREF, etc, but could not find the site in the top 100 links anywhere . . . . Just how did you locate it again?
N/A