Is there anything skeptics can't reduce

[Iacchus]

And you are, no doubt, trying to substitute a bunch of mystical sounding piffle for ideas that will actually withstand scrutiny.

If you say so.

 

[wastepanel]

Iacchus, according to the Bible, it's a test you take after you die. Then you're judged, and punished with eternal suffering for getting it wrong. I don't see any opportunities for change there.

Actually, any person can be forgiven for their sins according to the bible. If you are truly sorry or given the evidence and still choose not to believe, than you are thrown down there. The test does not take place after you die, it takes place through this life and the next. Of course, that's all speculation. I just wanted to clarify this.

 

[Iacchus]

Iacchus, according to the Bible, it's a test you take after you die. Then you're judged, and punished with eternal suffering for getting it wrong. I don't see any opportunities for change there.

No, you are mistaken. This is when we get our grades, and rewarded accordingly.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Actually, any person can be forgiven for their sins according to the bible. If you are truly sorry or given the evidence and still choose not to believe, than you are thrown down there. The test does not take place after you die, it takes place through this life and the next. Of course, that's all speculation. I just wanted to clarify this.

Right...so..if I accept Jesus into my heart, and buy the bible wholesale, and then I later change my mind, and do good things purely because I think they oughta get done, and I maybe treat homosexuals as equals, I fail, and burn in hell for all eternity?

Man, those are some nasty trick questions.

 

[Tricky]

Just don't claim to know anything outside of his point of reference (what he "thinks" he knows) and follow the crowd, and you and he will get along just fine.

LOL. You think Wastepanel is "following the crowd" here at this site? You must not be paying much attention to his posts. Point of fact, Wastepanel and I disagree markedly. But when you ask him a question, he answers. He does not obfuscate. He does not misdirect. He does not make things up. He does not reply with a non-sequitur question of his own. He answers.

So what does that say to you, Iacchus? If it is not the ideas you are presenting that make you a comic foil here, what else could it be? Why can some other religious people manage to navigate this site with minimal friction, but not you?

 

[Iacchus]

No, it doesn't. Within the manuscripts we are lucky enough to have, we've got ample evidence that the stories are not, in fact, intact.

This is part of the reason that no one takes your philosophical musings seriously, Iacchus. When you make statements that can be checked, you tend to get them wrong. This seriously detracts from your credibility when you then use those wrong statements as the basis for your untestable speculations.

The Bible, however, speaks of a mystery, and it isn't just a history lesson. So, if you don't get the mystery, whether you get the history right or not is pointless ... unless of course you're speaking purely from an historical standpoint.

 

[Tricky]

Actually, any person can be forgiven for their sins according to the bible. If you are truly sorry or given the evidence and still choose not to believe, than you are thrown down there. The test does not take place after you die, it takes place through this life and the next. Of course, that's all speculation. I just wanted to clarify this.

I've seen various interpretations of this, but the idea of post-death redemption and reward is rather unusual. I suspect that the reason for this is that such a scenario would remove religion as a moral authority in this life, which, in my opinion, is one of the primary reasons why we have religion. But quite obviously, if anybody really did wind up in the Christian version of hell, they would acknowledge Jesus PDQ. If redemption were possible from the afterlife, nobody would stay in hell very long.

On Christian boards, there is an ongoing discussion about OSAS and OSNAS, meaning "Once Saved, Always Saved" versus "Once Saved Not Always Saved". The disagreement is about if someone can lose their religion. Of course, those who argue for OSAS posit that if you lose your religion, then you weren't really saved in the first place. It is a version of the 'no true Scotsman' logical fallacy. The OSNAS crowd argues that redemption is an ongoing process, not an epiphany.

 

[Tricky]

The Bible, however, speaks of a mystery, and it isn't just a history lesson. So, if you don't get the mystery, whether you get the history right or not is pointless ... unless of course you're speaking purely from an historical standpoint.

Let me guess. You get the mystery, and all those who interpret the bible differently do not.

 

[Iacchus]

LOL. You think Wastepanel is "following the crowd" here at this site? You must not be paying much attention to his posts. Point of fact, Wastepanel and I disagree markedly. But when you ask him a question, he answers. He does not obfuscate. He does not misdirect. He does not make things up. He does not reply with a non-sequitur question of his own. He answers.

He says he's just guessing. I'm not.

So what does that say to you, Iacchus? If it is not the ideas you are presenting that make you a comic foil here, what else could it be? Why can some other religious people manage to navigate this site with minimal friction, but not you?

It says that I don't follow the crowd?

 

[Huntster]

Let me put it this way: if you created a universe with intelligent, rational beigns, and you, for some reason, wanted them to believe in you, what would you do ?

Would you just let them figure it out for themselves, which, considering the universe you've created is indistinguishable from a random quantum-fluctuation god mad; OR, would you actually provide them with clear indications of your existence ?? I'd go for option B.

If He provides "clear indications" of His existence, then it wouldn't be belief, would it?

 

[Huntster]

I thought so. Just run away when pressed for evidence, crusader-man....

I didn't run away.

I refused.

...Otherwise we're all doomed...

Are you the one making the calls?

 

[Iacchus]

Let me guess. You get the mystery, and all those who interpret the bible differently do not.

If there is no genuine mystery behind the Bible, then it is entirely worthless ... except perhaps for a handful of historians and anthropologists.

 

[Huntster]

That doesn't answer the question......

Too bad. Maybe you need additional homework.

... What's the lesson we're supposed to learn?...

I don't know. I'm not the teacher.

I've learned a few lessons in the past. I could share them with you, but you'd just reject them, so why bother?

... How can an absentee teacher punish those who fail to understand a lesson which has not been taught?

We hear it all the time; if you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

A failure to learn will manifest itself as punishment in itself.

...How is taking a test, and suffering the consquences forever, a "lesson"?...

Taking the test is the culmination of the lesson. Passing and failing dictate the results.

... It's pointless to teach something if you don't give anyone a chance to change

Change the test, change their motivation to learn, or change their effort to pass?

 

[Nyarlathotep]

If there is no genuine mystery behind the Bible, then it is entirely worthless ... except perhaps for a handful of historians and anthropologists.

True enough. But then why does the bible HAVE to have any worth beyond the historical, besides the fact that you and many others have a lot of emotional investment in it having something more to it?

 

[Huntster]

Iacchus, according to the Bible, it's a test you take after you die.....

The study, work, and test are now. Report cards are issued after death.

At least, that's the way I understand it..............

...Then you're judged, and punished with eternal suffering for getting it wrong. I don't see any opportunities for change there...

Yeah, from what I've been told, there are no remedial classes, and no incomplete grades.

So don't screw it up.

 

[Iacchus]

True enough. But then why does the bible HAVE to have any worth beyond the historical, besides the fact that you and many others have a lot of emotional investment in it having something more to it?

Because there is something more to it?

 

[wastepanel]

LOL. You think Wastepanel is "following the crowd" here at this site? You must not be paying much attention to his posts. Point of fact, Wastepanel and I disagree markedly. But when you ask him a question, he answers. He does not obfuscate. He does not misdirect. He does not make things up. He does not reply with a non-sequitur question of his own. He answers.

So what does that say to you, Iacchus? If it is not the ideas you are presenting that make you a comic foil here, what else could it be? Why can some other religious people manage to navigate this site with minimal friction, but not you?

Again, thank you for the kind remarks Tricky.

 

[Huntster]

If God (as he is described by Christians) wanted to talk to me, He could....

That's what I've been told.

... Why should I take someone else's word for it when He could easily deliver it himself?....

Has He delivered it directly?

No, not to me, either.

I don't know about you, but I'm probably not worthy of a personal visit by God. Hell, even the Governor doesn't stop by to talk to me.

The mayor has only been by once.

Moses I'm not.

... I distrust anyone who begins a discussion with the equivalent of, "God told me to tell you...

After recent events, I don't trust much of anybody, regardless who told them to tell me.

 

[Huntster]

Right...so..if I accept Jesus into my heart, and buy the bible wholesale, and then I later change my mind, and do good things purely because I think they oughta get done, and I maybe treat homosexuals as equals, I fail, and burn in hell for all eternity?.....

Who knows?

...Man, those are some nasty trick questions....

Yeah, this is one hell of a test.

It's a long one, too. Lots of questions. Some are multiple choice, some are essay, and some don't even have any answers.

The study guide is also under constant attack. Some folks even want you to take the test without it.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Because there is something more to it?

Prove it.