Is there an "atheist perspective"?

[D'rok]

What is this "natural tendency" to believe in gods? Does this mean I had an "unnatural" childhood and that I am not a "natural" adult.

Give me a break. Religion is taught. I wasn't taught it; I don't have it.

As has already been said, you are othering us. Plain and simple. To you, we are the barbarians at your gates. It's easier to deal with us in a category, isn't it?

Begone.

 

[Marduk]

First, thats not what the statistics says. Non-religioius is not the same as atheist. I think the chinese are primarily theists.

I have already posted a pie chart based on census data which proves you are spectacularly wrong.

How come you are unable to accept it ?

 

[Christian]

So you claim. Everyone else disagrees. What does this suggest to you?

It suggests nothing. This is not a matter right by consensus of a specific group. And not everyone disagrees with me, anyway. There have been some posters who have understood very well what I'm putting forth.

Your belief is irrelevant, and wrong.

That you think so, does not make it so. It should not be dogma or above discussion.

Even if true, so what? And now we come to the nub of the matter. You can't accept something proven by logical reasoning. What will you accept? Something written on gold tablets presented by an angel? God speaking to you from a burning bush? A snake whispering in your ear?

You have misundestood. This is not what I mean. All scientific evidence is falsifiable. All hypothesis that relate to descriptions of the natural world must be tested. They can't be discarted a priori via logical reasoning. This is not the same as to correct a faulty syllogism or mathematical equation.

We kinda do. See, you're trying to tell me something about myself. I think we very much need to agree on this, or you need to shut up about it.

Wrong. The description of a population is not the same as the description of any individual in that population. I can perfectly describe a population as tall on average. It is possible and factual that there will be people taller than the average and smaller. The description of the individual who is small in size is very different from the description of the population.

There is no "might" about it.

Excellent. I'm explaining simple Statistics concepts and you will grasp them.

 

[Christian]

I have already posted a pie chart based on census data which proves you are spectacularly wrong.

How come you are unable to accept it ?

Because you are reading the data wrong.

 

[fromdownunder]

Is there a "left-handed perspective"?

No. And yes, I am also left handed, and was fortunate enough to be raised in an era where people were not forced to become right handed.

Another way to put this would be to ask if left-handed have other common traits where one could predict their perspective.

Every person has some common traits with another person. My card carrying Christan son loves Monty Pythom movies. So do I. We both liked Avatar. and follow cricket. We both barrack for Geelong in the AFL. I adore rare steaks, he will not touch one. We watch WWE every week together, but argue like hell over who should be faces/heels and who should be in the top bracket of pro wrestling. You just don't get it, do you?

My hypothesis would read like this:

left-handed have other traits in common that allows to predict their perspective on a variety of topics or situations

Everybody has traits in common. That is what traits are. What you would need to do is establish if left handed people have traits in a generally different way than right handed people, then you would be actually comparing apples with apples.

Where do I come up with this idea? I speculate that left-handed is a trait that comes from a gene. This particular trait molds the brain to think and react in certain ways in specific situations. This molding affects the way individuals think, thus creating a distinct left-handed perspective.

Speculation aint science. Do some actual research.

There are several ways to test this hypothesis, but I think a survey is a good start. We could survey 1,000 people (randomly picked around the world. We would survey more than 1,000 but would only consider the answers of those who are atheist, to mask the survey). We would have our same size control group where the common trait be something else. Then we would look for common traits.

It's important to point out that the most we could conclude is that the average left-handed is more likely to be more of this or that. For example, the findings could be:

left-handed are more likely to be more cautious than the general population, on average.
left-handed are more likely to be more ambidextrous than the general population, on average.
left-handed are more likely to be smarter than the general population, on average.

"more likely" compared to whom? If you don't study right handed people at the same time, you have not got anything to compare left handed people with.

And so forth.

From this, one can guess the general left-handed perspective on specific topics, issues, etc.

This is only a mental exercise and pure speculation (on my part). I do think it is an interesting topic to consider.

Only in your own mind.

Norm

 

[Marduk]

Because you are reading the data wrong.

Uh no
youre reading the data wrong

are you denying that almost 50% of chinese are non theists ?
thats the majority group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority

 

[D'rok]

We both liked Avatar.

Atheist membership REVOKED!



(In case you missed the last newsletter, I'm the new chair of the admissions committee).

 

[Christian]

I am sorry, but I actually thought that it was data that you were after. After all, if you wish to perform an analysis of your question as to what the atheist perspective is, I would have thought that actual data was relevent.

One specific perspective would be a too small sample. Think of it this way. You would not prove the efficacy of a drug based on the result of one person.

I am not really sure what you mean by "relevant" data, since despite your disclaimer. you seem to insist that there is an atheist perspective viz:

I don't claim there is an atheist perspective. My point is that it should be a testable hypothesis. Revelant data comes from a survey (for example) with all the scientific qualities of a valid survey.

So, when people come along and provide information that your pre-conception is not true, then you simply refuse to look at the data provided, and say "it probably will be biased "

OK, in one way fair enough. Tell us the specific data you are looking for rather than trying to run people through a maze of your own making.

Getting any information as to what you actually want to know is like pulling teeth from a chicken. And the "just asking questions" thing does not really cut it.

I have put forth ideas, but they are not acknowledge. I will do it again. Now, please remember these are the traits that I would speculate would come out of a survey.

Atheist are more likely to be more contrarian than the general population, on average.
Atheist are more likely to be more skeptical than the general population, on average.
Atheist are more likely not to be believe in spirituality than the general population, on average.
Atheist are more likely to be independent thinkers than the general population, on average.
Atheist are more likely to have higher IQ's than the general population, on average.
Atheist are more likely to be tolerant of minorities than the general population, on average.
Atheist are more likely to be more respectful of the law than the general population, on average.

 

[Christian]

Uh no
youre reading the data wrong
[qimg]http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/belmarduk/0china_pie_chart.jpg[/qimg]

are you denying that almost 50% of chinese are non theists ?
thats the majority group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority

I read non-religious. You are equating non-religious with atheist. This is not correct.

 

[Marduk]

I read non-religious. You are equating non-religious with atheist. This is not correct.

You read atheist in my posts somewhere, please point out where I said that ?

any time youre ready

 

[Christian]

No. And yes, I am also left handed, and was fortunate enough to be raised in an era where people were not forced to become right handed.



Every person has some common traits with another person. My card carrying Christan son loves Monty Pythom movies. So do I. We both liked Avatar. and follow cricket. We both barrack for Geelong in the AFL. I adore rare steaks, he will not touch one. We watch WWE every week together, but argue like hell over who should be faces/heels and who should be in the top bracket of pro wrestling. You just don't get it, do you?



Everybody has traits in common. That is what traits are. What you would need to do is establish if left handed people have traits in a generally different way than right handed people, then you would be actually comparing apples with apples.



Speculation aint science. Do some actual research.



"more likely" compared to whom? If you don't study right handed people at the same time, you have not got anything to compare left handed people with.



Only in your own mind.

Norm

We are getting somewhere. We have made progress. I tell you why. Now, you are actually thinking in terms of testing the hypothesis. You begin to see that because people are left-handed, there might be some thing that they have to go through that are common experiences. For example, a right hander does not have to consider the type of ink of pens. A left-handed person does, because he or she might worry of smugdes. So maybe, left-handed people acquire a common appreciation for good quality pens. A good survey might uncover this. I hope, you can see what I'm trying to say.

 

[Marduk]

any luck on that yet ?

 

[D'rok]

One specific perspective would be a too small sample. Think of it this way. You would not prove the efficacy of a drug based on the result of one person.



I don't claim there is an atheist perspective. My point is that it should be a testable hypothesis. Revelant data comes from a survey (for example) with all the scientific qualities of a valid survey.




I have put forth ideas, but they are not acknowledge. I will do it again. Now, please remember these are the traits that I would speculate would come out of a survey.

Atheist are more likely to be more contrarian than the general population, on average.
Atheist are more likely to be more skeptical than the general population, on average.
Atheist are more likely not to be believe in spirituality than the general population, on average.
Atheist are more likely to be independent thinkers than the general population, on average.
Atheist are more likely to have higher IQ's than the general population, on average.
Atheist are more likely to be tolerant of minorities than the general population, on average.
Atheist are more likely to be more respectful of the law than the general population, on average.

It's almost as if you've completely ignored the points, put to you several times already, that your speculations are a) hopelessly culturally biased, and b) a silly categorization of a group that is merely "not you".

 

[Marduk]

It's almost as if you've completely ignored the points, put to you several times already, that your speculations are a) hopelessly culturally biased, and b) a silly categorization of a group that is merely "not you".

It certainly seems that way to me, that what christian is demonstrating is an inability to comprehend any viewpoint but his own and a sparkling inability to admit he could be wrong on anything at all, take his belief that I claimed something about atheists, he had made his mind up that I had said that and so clearly hadn't paid any attention to my posts at all, now we all know he got that wrong, I only posted three times when he started claiming I was saying something I wasn't, here they all are

It seems the majority aren't
[qimg]http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/belmarduk/0china_pie_chart.jpg[/qimg]

I have already posted a pie chart based on census data which proves you are spectacularly wrong.

How come you are unable to accept it ?

Uh no
youre reading the data wrong
[qimg]http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/belmarduk/0china_pie_chart.jpg[/qimg]

are you denying that almost 50% of chinese are non theists ?
thats the majority group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority

fail

 

[Christian]

any luck on that yet ?

This is what you wrote:

are you denying that almost 50% of chinese are non theists ?

I understood this to mean atheists. And thought no reason to include agnostics in the group because it is not warranted or supported. But, you are correct, you did not say atheist. Can you clarify what non theists includes apart from atheists?

 

[Marduk]

This is what you wrote:



I understood this to mean atheists. And thought no reason to include agnostics in the group because it is not warranted or supported. But, you are correct, you did not say atheist. Can you clarify what non theists includes apart from atheists?

Non theists, people who don't believe in God/s
thats pretty simple christian

 

[Christian]

It's almost as if you've completely ignored the points, put to you several times already, that your speculations are a) hopelessly culturally biased, and b) a silly categorization of a group that is merely "not you".

I'm sorry there is only one of me and I can't get to everyone immediately or all the time. I am forced to chose what I will answer to.

 

[Christian]

Non theists, people who don't believe in God/s
thats pretty simple christian

Atheists then?

 

[fromdownunder]

We are getting somewhere. We have made progress. I tell you why. Now, you are actually thinking in terms of testing the hypothesis. You begin to see that because people are left-handed, there might be some thing that they have to go through that are common experiences. For example, a right hander does not have to consider the type of ink of pens. A left-handed person does, because he or she might worry of smugdes. So maybe, left-handed people acquire a common appreciation for good quality pens. A good survey might uncover this. I hope, you can see what I'm trying to say.

Good. Do a survey. But a survey requires you to ask specific questions, and not flounder around in generalities. So, start asking specific questions, and you will get specific answers.

BTW, I have not used an ink pen, or a quill for over 50 years. Ball point pens. and any that I can lay my hands on do just nicely. You now have one piece of datum. Go for the rest.

Norm

 

[devnull]

I think perhaps you should explain why "non-theist" doesnt mean "atheist" Christian.