Is the USA too big?

[BillyTK]

Re: Re: Is the USA too big?

The US is successful precesely because of its fedeeral system, and thats why Europe is now trying to emulate it with the EU.

No that was the German vision for Europe, which got dumped on for being too, well, fourth reichy (or stereotypical parochialism to that effect IIRC). The EU is actually following the French (or more accurately, Destaingian) beaurocratic model.

 

[richardm]

Re: Re: Re: Is the USA too big?

No that was the German vision for Europe, which got dumped on for being too, well, fourth reichy (or stereotypical parochialism to that effect IIRC). The EU is actually following the French (or more accurately, Destaingian) beaurocratic model.

How do you mean, exactly, Billy?

Honestly, I'd have thought that a federal system was precisely what the EU was heading towards; to an extent it's what we have already. We have individual countries with their own govenment, but a big separate govenment in Brussels that oversees the whole lot, ensuring that cucumbers are kept straight.

Not too different to the US system right now, really, where the states have their own legislatures and the federal government oversees the lot, ensuring that their toilets are the right size.

 

[Luciana]

Brazil is larger than the 48-contiguous states. We are less divided, as we have only 26 states. We are much more centralized, for historical reasons, therefore, all the states have the same license plates, traffic laws, educational guidelines (including topics to be studied), penal and civil laws, electoral system... the list is almost endless.

What good does it do? Well, I can drive around the country and the rules are the same. If I steal or kill, it makes no difference where I am as the law is the same. If I'm in high school in state X, I can move to state Y and resume my studies as if nothing had happened. The political subdivision of the state territories are the same. The elections are held in the same day throughout the country (did I mention that 97% of the votes for the last presidential campaign were counted within the first 5 hours?). A lawyer can work anywhere in the country with no problems whatsoever.

Some regional differences are respected. Thus, minimum wages vary according to the cost of living. Local holidays and festivities. City regulations vary widely, but as I think about it, not that much.

In the end, I think it makes life easier. In the past, this uniformity was a necessity - the only way to control a huge country with poor comunication and sparse populations. As the states grew, everybody agreed that regional *differences* would be respected. But if it's not something justifiable, then everybody would do the same. This debate was held in the 1930s, with the boost in our industrialization and, so far, it has worked well and I don't see anyone complaining.

 

[Luciana]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Is the USA too big?

Not too different to the US system right now, really, where the states have their own legislatures and the federal government oversees the lot, ensuring that their toilets are the right size.

I don't think we should confuse federal government with micromanaging! We are centralized, but for the larger stuff.

Regulations on toilets??? I've never heard of toilet regulation here. I'm sure the company could be sued if they made a toilet that attacked your butt, other than that...

 

[BTox]

Not nearly big enough. Once we swallow Canada, Mexico, the EU and Australia (just because there are so many aussies here), it'll be just about the right size.

 

[Abdul Alhazred]

Not nearly big enough. Once we swallow Canada, Mexico, the EU and Australia (just because there are so many aussies here), it'll be just about the right size.

Feh! We are just the right size now. Or maybe not. Maybe we should shed California and Massachusetts.

I can see absorbing some parts of Canada, maybe. For all practical purposes we already have. But Mexico, Australia, and especially the EU must remain on their own.

What are you thinking?

 

[Always Free]

Not nearly big enough. Once we swallow Canada, Mexico, the EU and Australia (just because there are so many aussies here), it'll be just about the right size.

Don't you know that Aust is already the 51st state of America?

 

[Tmy]

Statehood is overrated. All it really means is that your predisposed to like the local sports teams. Its kinda a silly for the states to fera the feds since the feds are made up of reps from the states!

We need a strong federal govt in order to keep teh southern states under control. They can be real wacky. Theyre like retarded little brothers of the other states.

 

[Thanz]

I can see absorbing some parts of Canada, maybe. For all practical purposes we already have.

As a Canadian, I must say... dems fightin' words, pardner. No wait, I can't say that as a Canadian. I think I have to say... Please sir, I take exception to your remarks as I feel they are unfair. Could you please retract them? Thank you. Have a nice day.

 

[Tony]

I'm just interested in the opinions of Americans and non-Americans as to whether the US would be better or worse off as a number of entirely independent sovereign states or perhaps as a loosely affiliated collection of states.

Theoretically, this is what America is supposed to be. But that America died when the North won the Civil War, thank you Abraham Lincoln. The Federal police state is the reason they cant legalize marijuana in some states, legalize euthanasia in others, and ban abortion in others. The Federal police state is also the reason why all states have to have the same drinking and smoking ages. The key to circumventing Federal power is abolishing the Federal income tax.

 

[Suddenly]

Re: Re: Is the USA too big?

Theoretically, this is what America is supposed to be. But that America died when the North won the Civil War, thank you Abraham Lincoln. The Federal police state is the reason they cant legalize marijuana in some states, legalize euthanasia in others, and ban abortion in others. The Federal police state is also the reason why all states have to have the same drinking and smoking ages. The key to circumventing Federal power is abolishing the Federal income tax.

If you take out "when the North won the Civil War" and substitute "When the U.S. Supreme Court massively expanded the commerce clause giving the Federal Government de faco police powers thereby completely destroying the framers intent, thank you, Franklin Roosevelt," then I'll agree with you.

Just a small but important point. The 14th amendment may have put a small crack in federalism, but the 1930's commerce clause cases pulverized it.

 

[Mike B.]

Re: Re: Is the USA too big?

Theoretically, this is what America is supposed to be. But that America died when the North won the Civil War, thank you Abraham Lincoln. The Federal police state is the reason they cant legalize marijuana in some states, legalize euthanasia in others, and ban abortion in others. The Federal police state is also the reason why all states have to have the same drinking and smoking ages. The key to circumventing Federal power is abolishing the Federal income tax.

Yes wasn't it better when states could enslave people of a certain color without the Federal Government putting its nose into it and stopping it.

Likewise, how dare Federal Civil Rights Laws butt in and stop local states from discriminating against people of a certain color...

 

[Mike B.]

Feh! We are just the right size now. Or maybe not. Maybe we should shed California and Massachusetts.

I can see absorbing some parts of Canada, maybe. For all practical purposes we already have. But Mexico, Australia, and especially the EU must remain on their own.

What are you thinking?

Actually we tried to invade Canada once with thousands of troops and a few British regulars and locals kicked our arses big time...Heck they even took over Detroit...

 

[corplinx]

I think we should definitely let all the various island territories go. We should free Hawaii from out union. We should make alaska independent. We should give California to Mexico and Washington to Canada.

Right about then America would be a good manageable size.

 

[American]

48 states was fine with me. If we were to add 2 more, they should have been Canada and Mexico.

Too late.

 

[Jude]

Why do people want to get rid of me? I happen to like being Californian and American.

 

[Abdul Alhazred]

Why do people want to get rid of me? I happen to like being Californian and American.

Get rid of you, no.

But I propose to split California into at least three states.

 

[Supercharts]

British Columbia would be a reasonable addition to the United States. It would give the U.S. a contiguous border with Alaska and Washington. Upper Mich. is a stepping stone for a take over.

Actually all of Canada would be a great addition except Quebec. If Quebec suceeds then we could co-opt all of Canada.
Florida is mostly Canadian anyway during the winter months so most Canadians are comfortable with the social and political issues.

And Canadians know better than to use "y'all" or "you all' and I have never read of a Canadian using "noone" in place of "no one". They are polite and literate outside of Quebec. And, bearing in mind that exception, they are much smarter than people from New Hampshire or Maine. [Plus the price of Lobstah would fall to $1.39/lb.!]

Do we really need Texas? They refer to themselves as "The Lone Star State". If they want to be "Lone Star" then let them go. If Texas was independent they would probably take over Mexico like they always wanted to do. "Remember the Alamo!". Houston or Mexico City - no difference. Same smog, heat, crime etc. Except Texans are proud of it. And everybody in Texas already speaks "Spanish" so it'd be an easy thing to do.

Massachusetts? Divide it in two along the Conn. river. Call the western part "Berkshire" and the eastern part "Republic of Knee-Jerk Liberalism", "Taxachusetts" or "Kennedyland". Sen. John Kerry could be their first President because there's no way he's going to be President of the U.S.

 

[BillyTK]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Is the USA too big?

How do you mean, exactly, Billy?

I dunno, it just sounded good!

Honestly, I'd have thought that a federal system was precisely what the EU was heading towards; to an extent it's what we have already. We have individual countries with their own govenment, but a big separate govenment in Brussels that oversees the whole lot, ensuring that cucumbers are kept straight.

Not too different to the US system right now, really, where the states have their own legislatures and the federal government oversees the lot, ensuring that their toilets are the right size.

The german federal model is pretty much how you've described, with a two-tier parliamentary system with a federal parliament supported (and selected) by national parliaments. The French beaurocratic model *looks* similar, in that there is the same supra-national parliament, but works very differently to the federalist model. A very rough analogy for the French system would be of an international civil service which co-ordinates EU policy with member governments. Also, whereas in the federalist model, the EU president is chosen by MEPs who are elected by the people, in the beaurocratic model the president is chosen by prime ministers of member states. Of course, I could be completely wrong

 

[DrChinese]

Once more I feel the need to preface an OP with the disclaimer This is not a US-bashing thread.

I'm just interested in the opinions of Americans and non-Americans as to whether the US would be better or worse off as a number of entirely independent sovereign states or perhaps as a loosely affiliated collection of states.

From what I read and hear, a lot of Americans seem to be nervous of federal authority - it's almost a "them & us" attitude. Do you think you would be better off without the federal government and ruled entirely at a local level?

In your opinion, what makes the entity that is the United States of America, greater than the sum of its parts?

Graham

The US is fine as is. We should not split up. As all nations, we are composed of groups that express geographic differences. However, our similarities far outweigh our differences. We do not mind expressing our individuality, and this is often confused with having hatred or disdain for those who are different. However, Americans are very tolerant overall. A fundamental precept is "live and let live" although there will always be groups who want to control the behavior of others - whether in a separate state or not. We have strong laws that place limits on this, something almost universally respected.