Is the New or Old Testament more believable?

[CplFerro]

Cpl Ferro, when an account doesn't make sense, I think it's reasonable to question it, don't you?
Rather than disregard the gospels, I'd prefer to put them into context, given what we know.
Have you read Philo's Embassy to Gaius, which includes Agrippa's account of Pontius Pilate's actions as Prefect?

I find it heavy going myself, but you can read it here:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book40.html

I wonder if the gospel account of the trial and execution isn't modelled after this account and adapted to Jesus' hagiography.

If the Gospels aren't what they purport to be, pakeha, what do they matter? It's interesting to read of the problems Pilate faced, but this is of no consequence to the questions of religion.

Cpl Ferro

 

[CplFerro]

I might hate one more than the other, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't completely absolve the guy who consciously took the contract and actually pulled the trigger.

I MIGHT forgive and all, if they were under duress, like if someone held a gun to their daughter's head until they killed my relative, but that doesn't seem to be what Mark's story tells us, innit?

And yes, actually one of my relatives was probably murdered, though it was never solved. So it does hit close to home, and not just as a theoretical exercise. If I were to learn that someone paid a hit on my relative (though realistically it seems improbable), I'm pretty sure I wouldn't think that, hey, the actual murderer was just doing it for the money, he totally isn't to blame. If he chose to take an innocent life for money, then yes, that is blame enough for me. I would NOT think that that absolves him of all guilt, and I'd be actually pretty unrepentant about not absolving him.

ETA: And I have no problem with applying that to Pilate's guards too. Although they didn't get such a choice about whether Jesus should die or not. But one of the things that was explicitly established at Nuremberg was that "I was just following orders" is not an acceptable excuse. If you choose to obey murderous orders, you do share in the responsibility. But again, that wouldn't apply to Pilate anyway. The Jewish religious leadership was in no position to give him orders, and obeying orders from them was just not in his job description. Period. Regardless of what you think of the Nuremberg ruling, Pilate wouldn't even get to apply for that denied exemption in the first place.

In other words, as I said in so many words, the Pharisees, their lackeys in the crowd, Pilate, and his henchmen were all responsible for Jesus' death, according to the Gospels, if they're valid.

Cpl Ferro

 

[pakeha]

If the Gospels aren't what they purport to be, pakeha, what do they matter? It's interesting to read of the problems Pilate faced, but this is of no consequence to the questions of religion.

Cpl Ferro

What do they matter if they aren't the gospel truth?
A good question.
Our way of thinking, our esthetics, our way of expressing ourselves, our calendar can all be traced to and have been shaped by the gospels in varying degrees. It seems to me understanding just what those texts are is important.
I could be wrong about that, not for the first time.

 

[deaman]

While I agree they have value as historic (how they have affected history) and aesthetic items, I also think it's interesting how easily man is conned by a movement, meant to bring him into subjugation.

It is that aspect, that seems more important, and mind-blowing, to me.

 

[Giordano]

If the Gospels aren't what they purport to be, pakeha, what do they matter? It's interesting to read of the problems Pilate faced, but this is of no consequence to the questions of religion.

Cpl Ferro

They only matter in that some people believe in them. In the same way, believing that the CIA is reading your thoughts is a wrong belief, but might encourage aluminum foil hat sales if enough people believed it. Thus, what some people believe Pilate faced is relevant to how they view their religion, and what this belief did to subsequent historical events, but it doesn't matter to Pilate's decisions if he never faced these problems.

 

[Giordano]

In other words, as I said in so many words, the Pharisees, their lackeys in the crowd, Pilate, and his henchmen were all responsible for Jesus' death, according to the Gospels, if they're valid.

Cpl Ferro

But there is no evidence, outside of the NT, that these things ever occurred. And yet the belief that they occurred, as described in the NT, led to endless years of persecution of the Jewish people, which was my point: it is the NT and its frequent interpreters, that encouraged Anti-Semitism, not the opposite as you appeared to imply. And I don't know why the Romans did not acquire "the blood stain," but I never heard of a current day Italian blamed for the death of Christ (if we hypothesize for a moment that the story in the NT occurred at all).

 

[SezMe]

If the Gospels aren't what they purport to be ....

But many people see the gospels in many different lights so I don't think there is an unambiguous "purport to be".

I'm interested in what in your own personal opinion, CplFerro, the gospels "purport to be".

 

[deaman]

Is it about what they "purport to be", or about "what they are"?

 

[Leumas]

Well...given that logic, then it can also be suggested that if there is a God, then he hates the Jews for he keeps setting them up to fail. I mean, if there was a "God of the Jews", then don't ya' think he would have don e something about the Holocaust....or maybe that was Jesus' payback for the Jews killing him on a cross?

See how crazy a belief in the Ghosts can get?

The explanation would be it was punishment for transgressions, or some kind of teachable moment, or a setup for a greater good to come. Or whatever.

Cpl Ferro

Ha! As I posted, I'm culturally Jewish, and if Jews are considered to have been helped by God, then no thanks. Such historic suffering over and over again: the destruction of the temple, the Diaspora, the Holocaust, and more. As already explained: a lot of people in the world had much better luck. We've rolled craps many times. The Egyptians are at least as ancient and yet had moe luck! There are many others. If for some reason you are only counting small tribes: how about the Hawaiins?

Have a look at this post a while back:

Some rabbi once said, "God, if we're the chosen people, why not choose someone else for a while?"

He chose Abraham and commanded him to move and what happens? A famine that forces Abraham to have to move from the so called "promised land".

He promises Abraham he will have countless children and descendants and what happens? 200 years later ALL SEVENTY Israelites had to migrate PERMANENTLY from the "promised land" due to a drought.

What happens to those chosen SEVENTY? Their descendants are eventually enslaved for hundreds of years....YHWH must have been impotent to prevent his "CHOSEN" from suffering such a misery and had to wait until he went to the Gym to gain some omnipotence against the Egyptian gods.

But even when under the new and improved semi-potent YHWH's Governance, the "chosen" suffered untold hardships due to the TOTALITARIANISM of his "puritan" rule and his INSATIABLE desire for interminable sacrifices when they could not even have water and food for themselves let alone enough to keep the hundreds of thousands of kettle and lambs and doves that were necessary to satiate his love for the "savory smell of burning flesh".

The poor "chosen" were subject to INTERMINABLE cycles of anger and bouts of JEALOUS BATTERING every time they even LOOKED at another god or did not look at him the exact way he demands.

To me that sounds like the most heinous ABUSIVE relationship.

"CHOSEN" in the sense of how a man chooses a wife and subjects her to an abusive violent vengeful marriage that she is not even allowed to get out of. And the poor wife goes into a psychological condition that tries to make sense of it all and convinces herself that he is only doing it out of love and that it must be her fault she got all those black eyes and bruises. If only she could be a better wife, more obedient, more servile. If only she bent over more often and more willingly.


So yes.... INDEED..... it would be infinitely better if YHWH "chose" someone else and not JUST for a while...for ever.


But the above TRAGEDY is compounded to even more absurd dimensions of a FARCE in that the husband of the poor and battered woman has been dead for a long time and she is in fact beating HERSELF up and the abusive husband is all a DELUSION as real as the one a PSYCHIATRIC WARD patient gets when she cuts her body up and hallucinates voices in her head.

It is like that final TWIST on the plot of Alfred Hitchcock’s Psycho where it turns out that the mother causing the poor man to go nuts is in fact himself.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

That would be like arguing over which is more believable Star Wars or The Foundation Series or are they both just different views about the same reality of a Galactic Empire that later became a Galactic Republic but it is the same Galaxy.


I think the blog referred to in this post says it all

Science Fantasy vs Science Fiction.

 

[CplFerro]

But many people see the gospels in many different lights so I don't think there is an unambiguous "purport to be".

I'm interested in what in your own personal opinion, CplFerro, the gospels "purport to be".

Documents detailing the life and intentions of the most important man on Earth. What else? Why else would they have been written if that was not what they meant?

Cpl Ferro

 

[CplFerro]

What do they matter if they aren't the gospel truth?
A good question.
Our way of thinking, our esthetics, our way of expressing ourselves, our calendar can all be traced to and have been shaped by the gospels in varying degrees. It seems to me understanding just what those texts are is important.
I could be wrong about that, not for the first time.

Good point. If they are lies they are influential lies, like any culture's core body of myth.

Cpl Ferro

 

[Giordano]

Documents detailing the life and intentions of the most important man on Earth. What else? Why else would they have been written if that was not what they meant?

Cpl Ferro

I assume you are being satirical? Sorry, it is hard to tell on an Internet posting. But just in case you are not, I assume you also believe in the Koran, the Book of Mormon, and the Bhagavad Gita? Not to mention Harry Potter.

 

[Giordano]

Good point. If they are lies they are influential lies, like any culture's core body of myth.

Cpl Ferro

Yes, but important if you intend to reach practical conclusions from these books to know if they are lies or not. It is nice to know that many people believe in the 10 Commandments being the word of God when they write laws, but important to know that God doesn't really exist and that you will not be sent to Hell for quietly and internally being attracted to your neighbor's wife.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

I assume you are being satirical? Sorry, it is hard to tell on an Internet posting. But just in case you are not, I assume you also believe in the Koran, the Book of Mormon, and the Bhagavad Gita? Not to mention Harry Potter.

I think the key words that you seem to have missed in that conversation were "purport to be". Ferro never said they actually believe them to be that, but yes, the gospels pretend to be the accounts of the life of the most important man ever from the authors' point of view.

That being said, yes, the Quran, the Book Of Mormon, the Bhagavad Gita, the Buddhacarita, the Tao Te Ching, etc, all make similar claims (though there are differences too) about what they are.

 

[Giordano]

I think the key words that you seem to have missed in that conversation were "purport to be". Ferro never said they actually believe them to be that, but yes, the gospels pretend to be the accounts of the life of the most important man ever from the authors' point of view.

That being said, yes, the Quran, the Book Of Mormon, the Bhagavad Gita, the Buddhacarita, the Tao Te Ching, etc, all make similar claims (though there are differences too) about what they are.

Actually based on his postings in other threads, I do think that Ferro believes much of what is written in the NT, but I would be happy to be corrected if I am wrong. Cpl Ferro?

 

[SezMe]

Documents detailing the life and intentions of the most important man on Earth. What else? Why else would they have been written if that was not what they meant?

They were written decades after he died by people who didn't know him directly but only by third-hand connections. At the time, the authors did not know he was important or that Christianity would even survive.

What else? They were written as political advocacy documents, spun, twisted, made up and mistranslated countless times in order to gain political and religious power. I personally don't even think they "purport" to "detail" the life of Jesus.

 

[CplFerro]

I assume you are being satirical? Sorry, it is hard to tell on an Internet posting. But just in case you are not, I assume you also believe in the Koran, the Book of Mormon, and the Bhagavad Gita? Not to mention Harry Potter.

No, not satirical; I'm stating my opinion of what the Gospels were intended to be, not my own opinion of their veracity or that of any other "sacred" book.

Cpl Ferro

 

[CplFerro]

Actually based on his postings in other threads, I do think that Ferro believes much of what is written in the NT, but I would be happy to be corrected if I am wrong. Cpl Ferro?

In collision with this forum and elsewhere, my native anti-theism and acquired theism are in the process of neutralising themselves.

Cpl Ferro

 

[CplFerro]

They were written decades after he died by people who didn't know him directly but only by third-hand connections. At the time, the authors did not know he was important or that Christianity would even survive.

What else? They were written as political advocacy documents, spun, twisted, made up and mistranslated countless times in order to gain political and religious power. I personally don't even think they "purport" to "detail" the life of Jesus.

Then what do they purport to do, SezMe?

Cpl Ferro