Is the Goverment able to kill their own people?

[JimBenArm]

No, I think you should make an attempt to find it yourself. That way, you can dismiss/demean the source directly instead of doing it second-hand.

 

[I Am He]

Edited by chillzero: 

Edited for Rule 12.

 

[funk de fino]

yes of course - besides that, it is unclear, weather the first responders were warned at all. Can you prove that?

There are laws about signage for safety reasons at sites. There were signs telling the workrers to wear the PPE.

Look it up yourself.

 

[funk de fino]

Can you prove, that EPA excluded the air over Ground Zero in their statement? If not, then their statement included the air at Ground Zero.

About what kind of masks are you writing about ... do you have more information / references?

No-one ever said the air at ground zero was safe to breathe. If they did they would not have asked the workers to wear PPE. Its not difficult to understand.

 

[lee5]

Much of the monitoring data collected to date on and around the World Trade Center site indicates relatively low levels of asbestos and other potential contaminants. Nevertheless, workers should take precautions to protect themselves from any potential exposure.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the U.S. Department of Labor's Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) are making every effort to protect the health of workers at the World Trade Center site. EPA and OSHA are providing real-time analysis in the immediate vicinity of the debris pile at ground zero, checking for compounds such as benzene, sulphur dioxide and carbon monoxide that are associated with fires. This information helps response workers on the scene determine what level of respiratory protection is appropriate to use. EPA is also collecting data from 16 fixed air monitors in and around ground zero, which provide critical information about levels of asbestos at the site.

Crews working on the rubble pile at the World Trade Center site should wear respirators, which have been provided by EPA, OSHA and other government agencies, and take appropriate precautions to protect against potential environmental hazards. OSHA is fit-checking respirators for workers involved in the rescue and recovery.

http://www.epa.gov/wtc/summaries/epa-osha02.htm

There was no question that Ground Zero was dangerous and workers were required to wear proper safety gear.

Your confusion starts when you fail to understand that when they were saying "the air was safe to breathe" they were talking about areas outside of ground zero. The people wanted to know if it was safe to return back to work.

Anyone who says people working at ground zero had no idea that they needed to wear proper safety equipment (including masks) are simply wrong.

Get your facts strait.

 

[Travis]

As I recall Bush was wearing a mask when he visited Ground Zero. Maybe, failing everything else, that could have been a hint at the air quality.

Of course from what I heard many of the workers didn't wear masks so they could smoke. I guess they figured lung cancer was lung cancer regardless of how you got it.

 

[BigAl]

You can answer this question by yourself:


Why does no one talk in the political arena and in the media about this scandal?[/CENTER][/B][/LEFT]

You apparently don't live in NYC. The discussion continues to this day.

A friend of mine is a retired cop who served at WTC on 9/11. He has a chronic cough and I've heard his family members rag on him to attend the local clinic. It's the HQ for the study of the air quality on first responders.

 

[kookbreaker]

This is from a post of mine in a previous EPA thread. The inanity of this one does not earn itself a fresh retelling:

One of my good friends is a field agent for the EPA in NYC and was a first responder at the WTC. Rules were established, but it was up to local contractor bosses to enforce them. The agents and other EPA workers quite frankly had a lot of work to do without having to 'nanny' the workers around. Had their efforts been spent trying to get workers to follow what should have been common sense they would have not been able to prevent further environmental disasters from happening during the cleanup. My friend, for example, personally prevented the following at the WTC:

1) Kept WTC4's dry cleaning fluid storage container from being crumpled as scrap and spraying dry cleaning fluid everywhere. (Dry cleaning fluid is nasty, NASTY stuff).

2) Identifed and enforced the cleanup of oil-laden water around the WTC7 area. I say 'enforced' because at one point he had to face down some armed members of another agency that wanted to just pump the water elsewhere so their trucks could get in.

3) Still managed to find time to explain to workers who thought to ask him what the hazards were. As he noted, they always had their masks around their necks and were smoking. Wheras he constantly kept his mask on and told them that asbestos was only one of the dangers, and that phosphorus, mercury, suflides and other dangers were concerns.

Truthers accuse with ease. Its easy for them to sit on their bloated, pot-smoking paranoid butts and accuse everyone else of being corrupt murderers. Armchair quarterbacking is easy to do and I always wonder what they want to see the EPA do. They want them to waste time babysitting adults or actually do the work they needed to do? Its a funny attitude from a bunch of Hot Topic Anarchists that a gov't agency should be so controlling.

 

[moon1969]

Sure it is. Just look at the Russian apartment bombings. Then look at what happend to Sergei Yushenkov, Yuri Shchekochikhin and Alexander Litvinenko. Ramzan Kadyrov probaly killed people like Anna Politkovskaya, Movladi Baisarov and Ruslan Yamadayev. Many people say that Željko Ražnatović aka Arkan was killed by Slobodan Milošević, Radovan Karadžić and Ratko Mladić because Arkan was going to testify against them.

 

[Gravy]

Why does no one talk in the political arena and in the media about this scandal?​

​

You absolutely, positively, must be joking. One thing's for sure: you live nowhere near New York City.

Truthers: for the ten thousandth time: repeating falsehoods doesn't make them true. Evidence will not arrive at your doorstep each day. You have to make the attempt – a few minutes often does it – of finding the answers to your questions. That's called doing your homework so that you don't make a fool of yourself.

Ground Zero worker health issues, Respirator use, Dust composition, Environmental Testing

 

[MarkyX]

Why did not the government prevent that?

I think this demonstrates a rather unpleasant picture of Bio. It's pretty obvious that Bio has never worked a day in his life, otherwise he wouldn't have asked such an ignorant, if not stupid question.

The reality is, the employee has responsibility of their own. The only thing the employer can do is inform them of the safety law and the safety procedures. If the employee refuses to follow the safety rules or does something unsafe and doesn't report it to his supervisor, it's not the employer's fault, although I know some companies who give "points" for being caught doing something unsafe and essentially lead to termination.

In other words, the law requires workers to take their own safety responsibility. In this case, if they refuse to wear masks because they didn't want to, it's not the government's/employer's fault BY LAW.

 

[twinstead]

Well in all fairness to bio, it's probably difficult to say, "would you like fries with that" in a protective mask.

 

[JihadJane]

Looks like some people got the message.

[qimg]http://www.picturedesk.org/pr/jpayne/jpayne-2001Sep22-004-pr.jpg[/qimg]

I may be wrong, I don't have time to check, but I don't think the mask in your illustration would have been sufficent to protect the lungs of people working at Ground Zero.

Dead end job? No prospects? No-one notices you?

Rail at those better off than yourself, it will make you feel better, however silly you come across to readers.

I find your S&M role-playing games a little strange and have reported your comment to the moderation team.

 

[Gravy]

I may be wrong, I don't have time to check, but I don't think the mask in your illustration would have been sufficent to protect the lungs of people working at Ground Zero.

Since I gave this link above, if you have time to post here, you do have time to learn about Ground Zero respirator requirements, availability, and issues involving their use and non-use.

 

[bio]

You absolutely, positively, must be joking. One thing's for sure: you live nowhere near New York City.

Truthers: for the ten thousandth time: repeating falsehoods doesn't make them true. Evidence will not arrive at your doorstep each day. You have to make the attempt – a few minutes often does it – of finding the answers to your questions. That's called doing your homework so that you don't make a fool of yourself.

Ground Zero worker health issues, Respirator use, Dust composition, Environmental Testing

you were writing:
"EPA, OSHA, and the NYC and NYS DEP all quickly determined that the air at Ground Zero was not safe to breathe without the use of proper air filtration respirators."

Do you have a reference for that + had the workers been warned? (How often should I repeat this question)

....

"From the numerous accounts and studies I've read (scroll down for more info), and from speaking with Ground Zero workers, the lack of use of available respirators was primarily due to these factors, in order from most important to least:
1) Lax enforcement of existing rules.
2) A culture of disregard for personal danger, combined with a compulsion to work as much as possible on the piles, that prevailed among many workers. This was reinforced by commanders and supervisors at the site who disregarded the rules, and by visitors, such as Mayor Giuliani and celebrities, who appeared at Ground Zero without respiratory protection for photo opportunities.
3) Equipment that sometimes didn't fit well, was uncomfortable to use, and that made verbal communication at the noisy site impossible except at very close range.
4) Spotty training in the fitting and proper use of respirators.
Note that there is some disagreement about when respirators were available for all workers."

Why obviously did so many workers disregard the existing danger? Did they know?

EPA response to September 11:
"Much of the monitoring data collected to date on and around the World Trade Center site indicates relatively low levels of asbestos and other potential contaminants."
This contradict Gravy point + is criminal - I think everybody agrees, that the air was dangerous. How could EPA say that? We have here the explanation - why people are suffering and have lingering illnesses.

 

[Gravy]

you were writing:
"EPA, OSHA, and the NYC and NYS DEP all quickly determined that the air at Ground Zero was not safe to breathe without the use of proper air filtration respirators."

Do you have a reference for that + had the workers been warned? (How often should I repeat this question)

I swear to god if one of you people ever gets anything right the first time I'm going to have a heart attack. You can't even find the information you want when you're given the page it's on?

I'll give you one more shot at it. This time try to do better than my cat can do by pawing at the page at random. Here she comes now. The clock is running. See if you can beat her.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

I'd like to add to the OP. Yes the government can kill its own people. There are 100s of fatal car crashes every day and the Government allows them to happen.

 

[WildCat]

Sure it is. Just look at the Russian apartment bombings. Then look at what happend to Sergei Yushenkov, Yuri Shchekochikhin and Alexander Litvinenko. Ramzan Kadyrov probaly killed people like Anna Politkovskaya, Movladi Baisarov and Ruslan Yamadayev. Many people say that Željko Ražnatović aka Arkan was killed by Slobodan Milošević, Radovan Karadžić and Ratko Mladić because Arkan was going to testify against them.

Can we start a Russian sub-forum and have the software automatically move all of moon1969's posts there?

 

[bio]

I swear to god if one of you people ever gets anything right the first time I'm going to have a heart attack. You can't even find the information you want when you're given the page it's on?

I'll give you one more shot at it. This time try to do better than my cat can do by pawing at the page at random. Here she comes now. The clock is running. See if you can beat her.

you are funny but my point is, why the helpers did not use these masks. You gave a lot of reason, I know, but failed to address the (for me) interesting point. Had the workers been warned. If yes, give me a reference. If not - then this was a criminal act, of a state killing his own people.

 

[dudalb]

Yes, if it is politically expedient. It is a grave error to assume that governments identify with "their own people". People with power identify with themselves and their own kind.

Any other cliches you want to run at us?