Is The End Nigh?

[gumboot]

Roman empire fell. Humans are still among us. The Khan's great empire broke up. Here we remain.

Like I said, it's our particular society that I'm worried about, not the species.

Huh?

Cannibalism seems to be a very common feature when societies collapse. I see no reason why a collapsed western society would be any different.

Who is this "we" Kemo Sabe? "Western Society" has infiltrated the other "societies," and infected most of them. If "the West" falls residual elements of the "Society" will live on, as adapted by other "societies" that have been so infected. Ideas die hard.

Certainly some will. That doesn't give me much comfort.

Now, here's something for you to ponder. Somewhere between 1 and 10 percent of Chinese in China are Christian (of some sort or another) ... or so I hear. If that element of Western Society spreads there, does that worry you less, or more? If, as an underground religion, as it began in the Roman Empire, it eventually percolates up to become an official state institution in China, would that worry you less, or more?

I do not consider Christianity to be a fundamental element of Western Civilisation. The primary characteristics, as I see them, are:

-Democracy
-Liberalism
-The Rule of Law
-Free Market Economy
-Rationalism/Science

I am not sure if I'm using the technically correct term for each of the concepts, so I'd be happy to clarify what I mean by each if you wish.

 

[gumboot]

Compared to the days of the Russian Revolution and Hitler, its a relatively quiet time in history isn't it?

Well if Jared Diamond's book on social collapse taught me anything it's that social collapses seldom happen rapidly (at least relative to individual people living in them). You're talking a process of decades if not centuries. For all we know historians looking back at our time from the distant future may mark the turmoil of the early 20th Century as the beginning of the end.

When did the society on Easter Island start to collapse? Was it when last of the fertile soil was blown away and there was nowhere left to plant crops? Was it when the last trees were cut down, paving the way for soil erosion? Or did it start long before that? Evidence suggests things were already pretty desperate long before the trees were all cut down. But did the people living at the time realise their society was on the brink of annihilation? I doubt it.

 

[Beerina]

The planet is facing a major environmental crisis.

If all the ice at the polar caps was already melted, and the environment was changing such that much of the northern latitudes were going to freeze over solid, or have a freezing down to mid-Kentucky or so, plus or minus, during a new season, let's call it "Winter", well, that would be far more horiffic than the current direction, wouldn't it?

Moving away from the coasts over the course of a few hundred hears isn't much of a hurdle for humanity.

Species extinction

We are resurrecting species even as we talk. The mammoth and mastadon shall walk again, and not too many years from now.

Dodo, saber-toothed tiger, and others soon after, I'm sure. Maybe those pigmy humans who were on that island that they just discovered (similar to the tiny mammoths on a different one.) Then maybe some Neanderthal or other species of Homo-xxx.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

With the comical observation of this thread and 'Does your penis have a mind of its own?' underneath it, one could be led to believe Gumboot is invisioning a troubling future in which male penises rule the planet, dragging the useless corpse of their Human component around with them like a dead siamese twin.

I for one, welcome our Penis overlords.

 

[gumboot]

Moving away from the coasts over the course of a few hundred hears isn't much of a hurdle for humanity.

I'm not sure that's the biggest danger. Increased global temperatures means a reduction in arable land. Combine that with soil erosion and nutrient leaching, and a lot of us will be starving to death.

 

[gumboot]

With the comical observation of this thread and 'Does your penis have a mind of its own?' underneath it, one could be led to believe Gumboot is invisioning a troubling future in which male penises rule the planet, dragging the useless corpse of their Human component around with them like a dead siamese twin.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Their armies will bring a whole new meaning to the phrase 'standing to attention'.

 

[ConspiRaider]

I'm not sure that's the biggest danger. Increased global temperatures means a reduction in arable land. Combine that with soil erosion and nutrient leaching, and a lot of us will be starving to death.

Or there could be an increase/decrease in arable land.

Greenland, for example. If the ice goes - that is a huge slice of assumed arable land. Same for areas of Alaska, Yukon Territory, Northwest Territory, Nunavut, Siberia and so forth.

Should global warming increase its pace: What shall cause the pain and suffering and death for some of the human race is the transition, the adjustments to new topography and weather patterns. We won't move quickly enough to ensure 100% survival. And we'll be stepping on each other's toes - land, actually. And we all know how sacred, how dear, we hold specific slivers of the Earth's crust. Defend!!! Crush the invaders!!! Fight for the Fatherland, the Motherland!!!

 

[BenBurch]

Last laugh may come with famine, as all the obese people make it through...

 

[Darth Rotor]

Wanna come to a BBQ?

Oh, so you want to have me over for dinner?

 

[gumboot]

Or there could be an increase/decrease in arable land.

Greenland, for example. If the ice goes - that is a huge slice of assumed arable land.

The problem there is "assumed". The Norse already tried to plant crops on Greenland, during the Medieval Warm Period. Didn't work out so well.

Same for areas of Alaska, Yukon Territory, Northwest Territory, Nunavut, Siberia and so forth.

If you actually look at a map of the earth, there's very little land in the permafrost. Not surprising really - the earth is a sphere. We'll lose a lot more land than we gain. Australia would be toast, for starters - it's already exceedingly marginal.

Should global warming increase its pace: What shall cause the pain and suffering and death for some of the human race is the transition, the adjustments to new topography and weather patterns. We won't move quickly enough to ensure 100% survival. And we'll be stepping on each other's toes - land, actually. And we all know how sacred, how dear, we hold specific slivers of the Earth's crust. Defend!!! Crush the invaders!!! Fight for the Fatherland, the Motherland!!!

Exactly. As increasing pressure is put on us for resources, we're going to rip each other apart.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Last laugh may come with famine, as all the obese people make it through...

See gumboot's and Gurdur's posts: the obese are being fattened for the slaughter.

Puts the term 'corn fed woman' in a whole new perspective.

Hmmm, I had two corndogs for breakfast. (I get them 2/99 cents at the local gas station/coffee shop. Best food deal in town.) Maybe I ought to reconsider, with an eye to how sweet I am making myself to a cannibal.

DR

 

[ConspiRaider]

I should clarify that what I am talking of is the collapse of western civilisation, not extinction of the human species.

10-roger. Habit of mine - I like to step as far back as possible when viewing these kinds of issues and stresses.

What will be the biggest problem this century, though, and not just for Western civilization but all civilizations, is our stubborn, perhaps inate, sense of territoriality. That deep-rooted concept will be severely tested. We'll fail some of those tests, undoubtedly. You just know that's coming. We love sinking long stakes into areas from tiny to gargantuan, and refusing to budge.

We've fought horrific, destructive, massive and bloody wars over territory, and that's when there were far fewer people and far more areas of arable but uninhabited land. Now the situation is reversed: 7 billion people, less available land, hundreds of nations and cultures bound and determined to survive and carry forth their cultures and traditions - no matter what the cost.

It'd be better if we didn't tie so much meaning to land and the items, cultural and material, we deposit upon that land. We'd perhaps fare better if we were more mobile-minded, nomadic by nature. Way way way off into the future, I can envision ACTUAL fully self-contained mobile homes that can get airborne. Kind of like living in your car - except it's bigger and has running water. You pick up and go. You escape the temporary floods, the fires, the earthquakes, the tornadoes, the droughts, the whatevers. You come back when things settle down, or, you light down in a new location.

That's one possible scenario. Another is spreading out into the cosmos.

 

[maxfrost]

Last laugh may come with famine, as all the obese people make it through...

Obese people will be the first ones served.

 

[Darth Rotor]

10-roger. Habit of mine - I like to step as far back as possible when viewing these kinds of issues and stresses.

What will be the biggest problem this century, though, and not just for Western civilization but all civilizations, is our stubborn, perhaps inate, sense of territoriality. That deep-rooted concept will be severely tested. We'll fail some of those tests, undoubtedly. You just know that's coming. We love sinking long stakes into areas from tiny to gargantuan, and refusing to budge.

We've fought horrific, destructive, massive and bloody wars over territory, and that's when there were far fewer people and far more areas of arable but uninhabited land. Now the situation is reversed: 7 billion people, less available land, hundreds of nations and cultures bound and determined to survive and carry forth their cultures and traditions - no matter what the cost.

It'd be better if we didn't tie so much meaning to land and the items, cultural and material, we deposit upon that land. We'd perhaps fare better if we were more mobile-minded, nomadic by nature. Way way way off into the future, I can envision ACTUAL fully self-contained mobile homes that can get airborne. Kind of like living in your car - except it's bigger and has running water. You pick up and go. You escape the temporary floods, the fires, the earthquakes, the tornadoes, the droughts, the whatevers. You come back when things settle down, or, you light down in a new location.

That's one possible scenario.

Another is to look at global warming as adding to the total water content, which means more evaporated water, which means more rain, which might mean less drought. (Depends on rainfall distribution.) Silver linings to clouds, and all that. Of course, if all of the water shows up at once, like hurricane Ike, that's another story.

Another is spreading out into the cosmos.

That won't stop the warring and fighting, sorry to say, as that will lead to The Brood War.

 

[Kittyclaws]

Obese people will be the first ones served.

"Served" as in putting plates before them or "served" as in on the plate?

If it's the latter, you'll have to catch me first.

 

[gumboot]

On the plus side my own little slice of paradise will probably survive fine - New Zealand is one of the few first world countries with a bio capacity greater than the population's biological footprint.

Fortunately the mass starvations, riots, and hurricanes will stop you filthy land-lubbing continentals for getting your emaciated ET-fingered hands on our deliciously rich soil.

 

[Alt+F4]

The planet is facing a major environmental crisis.
The world's economies are facing a major financial crisis.
Piracy is on the rise.
Societies are becoming increasingly violent.
Terrorism.
Genocide.
Wars.
Radical Religion.
Pressure from the developing world.
An aging population.
Lowering birth rates.
Oil is running out.
Soil depletion.
Fisheries depletion.
Deforestation.
Diversion of water from the water cycle.
Species extinction.
Obesity.
Diabetes.

I blame it on gay marriage.

 

[ConspiRaider]

Another is to look at global warming as adding to the total water content, which means more evaporated water, which means more rain, which might mean less drought. (Depends on rainfall distribution.) Silver linings to clouds, and all that. Of course, if all of the water shows up at once, like hurricane Ike, that's another story.

That won't stop the warring and fighting, sorry to say, as that will lead to The Brood War.

I suppose the actual volume of water stays relatively the same on the Earth, so I'll assume you mean freshwater, Darthster. It's all in the cause and effect, as you indicated. Rapidly changing weather patterns should cause some parched areas to be drenched, other previously wet areas "droughted", and still others virtually unaffected.

Took millions of years but apparently, rainfall patterns contributed mightily to how we arrived. To get us out of the trees, you first have to dry out East Africa a bit, change the vegetation here and there, and thereby force a primarily arboreal creature down onto the savannahs for survival. The sub-continent India bashing into Asia and plowing up the Himalayas figured into that little drama. The rains stayed mainly on the plains - of India and Asia as monsoons.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I suppose the actual volume of water stays relatively the same on the Earth, so I'll assume you mean freshwater, Darthster.

Sort of. I mean the water content of the atmosphere. As temp goes up, it tends to be able to retain more water. Cold air is dryer than warm air, and all that. More water surface, oceans, means greater evap potential.

It's all in the cause and effect, as you indicated. Rapidly changing weather patterns should cause some parched areas to be drenched, other previously wet areas "droughted", and still others virtually unaffected.

Yeah.

DR