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Is The End Nigh?

gumboot

lorcutus.tolere
Joined
Jun 18, 2006
Messages
25,327
The planet is facing a major environmental crisis.
The world's economies are facing a major financial crisis.
Piracy is on the rise.
Societies are becoming increasingly violent.
Terrorism.
Genocide.
Wars.
Radical Religion.
Pressure from the developing world.
An aging population.
Lowering birth rates.
Oil is running out.
Soil depletion.
Fisheries depletion.
Deforestation.
Diversion of water from the water cycle.
Species extinction.
Obesity.
Diabetes.

Anyone who follows the news is aware of the various "dire" situations assaulting western civilisation.

Is the end, indeed, nigh? Most societies collapse, at some point. Put under pressure by war, environmental damage, climate change, resource depletion, and over population, the economy collapses, mass panic ensues, and the very fabric of society disintegrates into civil war, anarchy and cannibalism.

I think Western Society is very robust, and able to handle a lot of things. Any of the many challenges facing us now, we could handle with ease. But all of them at once? Can we manage that?

I'm agnostic on the matter, but I must admit I am genuinely concerned about how the next 50 years are going to pan out.
 
Meh. Screw it. Let the cephalapods have it for a few thousand years.
 
gumboot said:
I'm agnostic on the matter, but I must admit I am genuinely concerned about how the next 50 years are going to pan out.

Western Society may slow-burn more to parity with non-Western, but it's not going to be anything major imo, or anything to worry about.

The world's economies are facing a major financial crisis.
Piracy is on the rise.
Societies are becoming increasingly violent.
Terrorism.
Genocide.
Wars.
Radical Religion.
Pressure from the developing world.
An aging population.
Lowering birth rates.
Oil is running out.
Soil depletion.
Fisheries depletion.
Deforestation.
Diversion of water from the water cycle.
Species extinction.

Obesity.
Diabetes.

Maybe I'm just a misanthrope but the bolded ones are the only things that really concern me. Human society can rebound from anything beyond literal extinction, and extremely quickly on a geologic timescale. It's faced inter-species troubles pretty often over the millenia and hasn't slowed down much. The alterations to the Earth humans are carrying out are much more severe, acute, and take much longer to rebound if they can at all.

Also--I'm skeptical whether anything even close to a utopia is possible. It seems our nature to invent conflict even when not necessary, as a goal of group identity or hierarchial stratification. If free-energy and Star Trek "replicators" were invented tomorrow (able to give anyone anything at no cost, let's say), I think there'd still be war, genocide, the third-world, religious strife, terrorism, economic classes, etc. Simply because many people would still desire the power to be able to dole the energy and stuff out only to those who they feel are worthy of it. And such people would war with others for sole possession of that power.
 
I'm agnostic on the matter, but I must admit I am genuinely concerned about how the next 50 years are going to pan out.
Me too. I cannot see a happy scenario where we "all get along". That said, I do not see a crises that crystallizes the whole enchillda but rather an increasing number of local crises (ie, Katrina in the USA). The challenge for humanity will be its ability to see these local disasters as something more than just local problems.
 
Piracy is on the rise.
Societies are becoming increasingly violent.
Terrorism.
Genocide.
Wars.
Radical Religion.
Pressure from the developing world.
An aging population.
Lowering birth rates.
Oil is running out.
Soil depletion.
Fisheries depletion.
Deforestation.
Diversion of water from the water cycle.
Species extinction.
Obesity.
Diabetes.

Someone beat you to it.

Harry Truman
Doris Day
Red China
Johnnie Ray
South Pacific
Walter Winchell
Joe DiMaggio
Joe McCarthy
Richard Nixon
Studebaker
television
North Korea
South Korea
Marilyn Monroe
Rosenbergs
H-Bomb
Sugar Ray
Panmunjom
Brando
"The King and I"
"The Catcher in the Rye"
Eisenhower
vaccine
England's got a new queen
Marciano
Liberace
Santayana goodbye
Josef Stalin
Malenkov
Nasser
Prokofiev
Rockefeller
Campanella
Communist Bloc
Roy Cohn
Juan Peron
Toscanini
dacron
Dien Bien Phu
"Rock Around the Clock"
Einstein
James Dean
Brooklyn's got a winning team
Davy Crockett
"Peter Pan"
Elvis Presley
Disneyland
Bardot
Budapest
Alabama
Khrushchev
Princess Grace
"Peyton Place"
trouble in the Suez
Little Rock
Pasternak
Mickey Mantle
Kerouac
Sputnik
Chou En-Lai
"Bridge on the River Kwai"
Lebanon
Charles de Gaulle
California baseball
Starkweather
homicide
children of thalidomide
Buddy Holly
"Ben-Hur"
space monkey
Mafia
hula hoops
Castro
Edsel is a no go
U2
Syngman Rhee
payola
Kennedy
Chubby Checker
"Psycho"
Belgians in the Congo
Hemingway
Eichmann
"Stranger in a Strange Land"
Dylan
Berlin
Bay of Pigs Invasion
"Lawrence of Arabia"
British Beatlemania
Ole Miss
John Glenn
Liston beats Patterson
Pope Paul
Malcolm X
British politician sex
JFK, blown away, what else do I have to say
Birth control
Ho Chi Minh
Richard Nixon, back again
Moonshot
Woodstock
Watergate
punk rock
Begin
Reagan
Palestine
terror on the airline
Ayatollolah's in Iran
Russians in Afghanistan
"Wheel of Fortune"
Sally Ride
heavy metal
suicide
Foreign debts
homeless vets
AIDS
Crack
Bernie Goetz
Hypodermics on the shore
China's under martial law
Rock and Roller Cola Wars
 
We'll manage.

There won't be an "end" to humanity this century. We humans have the dubious honor of quick-extincting various species on the planet, but for ourselves? Nature gets to do that, perched as we are atop the food chain. That'd be the loooonnnnggggg, slowwwwww and gradual demise, an oldie but a goodie from Nature. That is, if we don't figure out how to change the game before Nature starts the clock running on us.

However, this century we'll still be hanging around. It's going to be rough at times, because we haven't yet designed the world to effect the successful handling of global issues. Culture, tradition, religion, language, greed, fear, mistrust, superstition and our dogged insistence on "owning" specific slivers of the Earth's crust are some of the major obstacles.

The polar ice cap is in jeopardy, could melt completely in the summer within 10 years or less. Tough to predict. Except our reaction. Countries are scrambling to lay "claim" to vast oil and mineral and shipping rights once things unfreeze northwards. That's us. Exploit a change for pure profit.

What we lack are referees in the Greed and Grab Game. Right now we're individual teams, making up our own rules of acquisition and exploitation. One day when our technology is really out of whack with our ability to control and restrain it: We could be completely done in by our shortsightedness. But we're not there. Not yet knowledgeable enough to off ourselves technologically. I hope the referees show up before that Final Game gun goes off.
 
I should clarify that what I am talking of is the collapse of western civilisation, not extinction of the human species.
 
Someone beat you to it.

Harry Truman
Doris Day
Red China
Johnnie Ray
South Pacific
Walter Winchell
Joe DiMaggio
Joe McCarthy
Richard Nixon
Studebaker
television
North Korea
South Korea
Marilyn Monroe
Rosenbergs
H-Bomb
Sugar Ray
Panmunjom
Brando
"The King and I"
"The Catcher in the Rye"
Eisenhower
vaccine
England's got a new queen
Marciano
Liberace
Santayana goodbye
Josef Stalin
Malenkov
Nasser
Prokofiev
Rockefeller
Campanella
Communist Bloc
Roy Cohn
Juan Peron
Toscanini
dacron
Dien Bien Phu
"Rock Around the Clock"
Einstein
James Dean
Brooklyn's got a winning team
Davy Crockett
"Peter Pan"
Elvis Presley
Disneyland
Bardot
Budapest
Alabama
Khrushchev
Princess Grace
"Peyton Place"
trouble in the Suez
Little Rock
Pasternak
Mickey Mantle
Kerouac
Sputnik
Chou En-Lai
"Bridge on the River Kwai"
Lebanon
Charles de Gaulle
California baseball
Starkweather
homicide
children of thalidomide
Buddy Holly
"Ben-Hur"
space monkey
Mafia
hula hoops
Castro
Edsel is a no go
U2
Syngman Rhee
payola
Kennedy
Chubby Checker
"Psycho"
Belgians in the Congo
Hemingway
Eichmann
"Stranger in a Strange Land"
Dylan
Berlin
Bay of Pigs Invasion
"Lawrence of Arabia"
British Beatlemania
Ole Miss
John Glenn
Liston beats Patterson
Pope Paul
Malcolm X
British politician sex
JFK, blown away, what else do I have to say
Birth control
Ho Chi Minh
Richard Nixon, back again
Moonshot
Woodstock
Watergate
punk rock
Begin
Reagan
Palestine
terror on the airline
Ayatollolah's in Iran
Russians in Afghanistan
"Wheel of Fortune"
Sally Ride
heavy metal
suicide
Foreign debts
homeless vets
AIDS
Crack
Bernie Goetz
Hypodermics on the shore
China's under martial law
Rock and Roller Cola Wars

Heh, heh, no, we didn't start the fire. The question is, will it be a slow burn, a conflagration, or another bigger bang?
 
The planet is facing a major environmental crisis.
The world's economies are facing a major financial crisis.
Piracy is on the rise.
Societies are becoming increasingly violent.
Terrorism.
Genocide.
Wars.
Radical Religion.
Pressure from the developing world.
An aging population.
Lowering birth rates.
Oil is running out.
Soil depletion.
Fisheries depletion.
Deforestation.
Diversion of water from the water cycle.
Species extinction.
Obesity.
Diabetes.

Anyone who follows the news is aware of the various "dire" situations assaulting western civilisation.

...snip...

Is that not just because of what the media focuses on and how they present their stories?

Most of what you list would seem to have improved over any significant time period. Others such as "obesity" and "diabetes" are indications that people are living longer, have more food and have access to better treatments because they are alive to suffer the problems caused by being obese or diabetic rather than dead from starvation or malnourishment!
 
The planet is facing a major environmental crisis.
The world's economies are facing a major financial crisis.
Piracy is on the rise.
Societies are becoming increasingly violent.
Terrorism.
Genocide.
Wars.
Radical Religion.
Pressure from the developing world.
An aging population.
Lowering birth rates.
Oil is running out.
Soil depletion.
Fisheries depletion.
Deforestation.
Diversion of water from the water cycle.
Species extinction.
Obesity.
Diabetes.
I feel fine. ;) The elements that most concern me were well summarized by Dragoonster.
Anyone who follows the news is aware of the various "dire" situations assaulting western civilisation.
Roman empire fell. Humans are still among us. The Khan's great empire broke up. Here we remain.
Is the end, indeed, nigh?
The sheriff is near.
Most societies collapse, at some point. Put under pressure by war, environmental damage, climate change, resource depletion, and over population, the economy collapses, mass panic ensues, and the very fabric of society disintegrates into civil war, anarchy and cannibalism.
Huh?
I think Western Society is very robust, and able to handle a lot of things. Any of the many challenges facing us now, we could handle with ease. But all of them at once? Can we manage that?
Who is this "we" Kemo Sabe? "Western Society" has infiltrated the other "societies," and infected most of them. If "the West" falls residual elements of the "Society" will live on, as adapted by other "societies" that have been so infected. Ideas die hard.
I'm agnostic on the matter, but I must admit I am genuinely concerned about how the next 50 years are going to pan out.
If you keep worrying like that, you'll get a lot of gray hair. :cool: Now, here's something for you to ponder. Somewhere between 1 and 10 percent of Chinese in China are Christian (of some sort or another) ... or so I hear. If that element of Western Society spreads there, does that worry you less, or more? If, as an underground religion, as it began in the Roman Empire, it eventually percolates up to become an official state institution in China, would that worry you less, or more?

DR
 
Last edited:
Someone beat you to it.

Harry Truman
Doris Day
Red China
Johnnie Ray
South Pacific
Walter Winchell
Joe DiMaggio
Joe McCarthy
Richard Nixon
Studebaker
television
North Korea
South Korea
Marilyn Monroe
Rosenbergs
H-Bomb
Sugar Ray
Panmunjom
Brando
"The King and I"
"The Catcher in the Rye"
Eisenhower
vaccine
England's got a new queen
Marciano
Liberace
Santayana goodbye
Josef Stalin
Malenkov
Nasser
Prokofiev
Rockefeller
Campanella
Communist Bloc
Roy Cohn
Juan Peron
Toscanini
dacron
Dien Bien Phu
"Rock Around the Clock"
Einstein
James Dean
Brooklyn's got a winning team
Davy Crockett
"Peter Pan"
Elvis Presley
Disneyland
Bardot
Budapest
Alabama
Khrushchev
Princess Grace
"Peyton Place"
trouble in the Suez
Little Rock
Pasternak
Mickey Mantle
Kerouac
Sputnik
Chou En-Lai
"Bridge on the River Kwai"
Lebanon
Charles de Gaulle
California baseball
Starkweather
homicide
children of thalidomide
Buddy Holly
"Ben-Hur"
space monkey
Mafia
hula hoops
Castro
Edsel is a no go
U2
Syngman Rhee
payola
Kennedy
Chubby Checker
"Psycho"
Belgians in the Congo
Hemingway
Eichmann
"Stranger in a Strange Land"
Dylan
Berlin
Bay of Pigs Invasion
"Lawrence of Arabia"
British Beatlemania
Ole Miss
John Glenn
Liston beats Patterson
Pope Paul
Malcolm X
British politician sex
JFK, blown away, what else do I have to say
Birth control
Ho Chi Minh
Richard Nixon, back again
Moonshot
Woodstock
Watergate
punk rock
Begin
Reagan
Palestine
terror on the airline
Ayatollolah's in Iran
Russians in Afghanistan
"Wheel of Fortune"
Sally Ride
heavy metal
suicide
Foreign debts
homeless vets
AIDS
Crack
Bernie Goetz
Hypodermics on the shore
China's under martial law
Rock and Roller Cola Wars

So we did start the fire! I knew it!
 
IMO it may feel like disaster is just around the corner, but some of that is the media blowing fear up our skirts. Fearful people are easily manipulated (Patriot Act).

Western civilization, ie: rules of law, freedoms outlined in many nations' founding documents, advancement of science, etc., is not going to disappear unless we throw it away. Even then, that would probably only happen on a nation by nation basis. Up until a few weeks ago, I'd've said the US would be the first ones over the cliff until I saw the election results. :)

Change is unsettling. Note recent research on how uncertain circumstances turn more people to magical thinking and religious belief. Just relax and enjoy the ride. If you don't like what's happening, work to change what you can.
 
Compared to the days of the Russian Revolution and Hitler, its a relatively quiet time in history isn't it?
 
With the results of the current US election, I feel a bit more optimistic about "Western Civilization" addressing these issues in a much more responsible manner. Just my 2 coppers on the subject.
 
I should clarify that what I am talking of is the collapse of western civilisation, not extinction of the human species.

So long as there are competent people concerned about the issues you have raised, there is little to fear in the way of total anarchy. Too many people have too much invested--emotionally as well as financially--to see it disappear all together.
 
Is that not just because of what the media focuses on and how they present their stories?

Good question... but I'm not convinced. Some of these really are major problems (or at least I think they are) and at least one is a first in human history - global climate change. The last major climate change we had to deal with (the Little Ice Age) wiped out a good chunk of the world's population and had a devastating effect on society that has echoed through the centuries. A number of micro-societies were totally wiped out by it (like the Norse in Greenland).

Others, like the financial crisis, are directly affected by media reporting - it may be that the media are exaggerating the depth of the crisis, but purely by reporting it that way they could actually cause things to get that bad.



Most of what you list would seem to have improved over any significant time period.

I wouldn't say "most" - as far as I can tell historically the only ones that have been worse in the past are the level of violence in society, radical religion, piracy (that was added as a joke anyway) and maybe economics. Most of the others like resource depletion, aging populations, lower birth rates and pressure from the developing world are very much new and increasing problems. Others like "war" have become far worse purely because of the capability for destruction has increased enormously.


Others such as "obesity" and "diabetes" are indications that people are living longer, have more food and have access to better treatments because they are alive to suffer the problems caused by being obese or diabetic rather than dead from starvation or malnourishment!

I'm not sure I can entirely agree, although I see your point. Obesity and diabetes aren't just problems with the old though, they're major issues with the very young. Some of these problems have certainly existed in the past, of course, but that's kind of why I mentioned them - they're problems that have caused other societies to collapse. They're mostly not problems that have been major issues for western civilisation.
 

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