Is Mark Basile's WTC Dust Study Pointless?

[jaydeehess]

That just made the amateur physicist in me snort coffee because in another forum I used to belong to, I heard that exact argument!

He/she actually believed there are different kinds of heat and that energy ius not measurable when someone pointed out the potential energy of materials like explosives and thermite.

In my experience its a combination of misunderstanding of terms like chemical energy, mechanical energy, potential energy, kinetic energy , radiation energy and so on; and "learning" science from sci-fi movies.

 

[jaydeehess]

I almost hate to ask, but who is "Ziggy?" Did he play guitar?

He jives us that he is voodoo, but the cat is just crass.

Nah, different guy.

 

[beachnut]

...
I recall it differently and so does Ziggi;
.....

Does Ziggi's mom know he is in the basement supporting lies about 911? Zugam, Ziggi Zugam.

Ziggi is a kid who has no clue what chemistry is, and proves it on line.

You now use hearsay to support a lie.

The study is pointless because zero steel at the WTC on 911 was damaged by thermite. A point of fact, means trying to back in thermite is a joke.

Ziggi said so, and Ziggi is a kid who has no clue what chemistry is. He has blog, and supports dumbed down lies from 911 truth with ignorance and nonsense. Got a link to the dumbest recycled claims in history, a link to Ziggi's failure.

 

[GlennB]

Never mind. Must learn that to resign from these threads actually means *not posting*

 

[gmanontario]

Do I owe you a coffee?

No it went back into the cup.

There are multiple reasons why this chasing the truthers over thermXte or microspheres is a waste of time - for 9/11 discussion. Scientific interest is a different matter but it is irrelevant to 9/11 discussion.

Purely in the heat/thermodynamics domain it should be obvious - will be to anyone with a "feeling" for basic physics - that a painted on film of superdooperdoublytripledstrengththermite... simply isn't in the ball park of doing anything destructive. No need to decide if there was thermXte there. Wouldn't matter if there were hundred tonne stockpiles on Ground Zero. It wasn't used for CD.

Discuss the science all you want but don't loose the plot. It wasn't used for CD on 9/11. Remember the alligators and draining the swamp.

I rarley discuss what I do know about science with anyone who uses the truther buzzwords. It's a waste of time and my grandson is more logical, committed and energetic at 3 years old than most internet truthers. I'd rather play with him that try to smash through the brick wall of ignorance known as the truth movement.

 

[Miragememories]

Next prediction: the DSC tests will show an exothermic reaction at 430 C, just like the original 2009 experiments did.

Whoopdeedoo.

Go to the Analytika website where they sell rust flakes: the ignition temperature of their flakes is, you guessed it, 430 C.

Rust (iron oxide)(FeO) is inert, it is already oxidized, unlike unoxidized iron (Fe). Rust can melt but it cannot burn or ignite.

Pure iron powder (Fe), not "rust flakes" (FeO), can burn at 430C.
http://www.analytyka.com.mx/tabla periodica/MSDS/Fe/IRON POWDER.htm

Another prediction: they're out of chip samples!

I believe Mark Basile has done this pointless ignition test hundreds of times and his supply is spent.

Now he has $5000 or so and no dust left to extract chips from.

I have repeatedly written to him and offered to see if I can help him procure WTC dust from Jim Millette, and he has never answered.

They're out of dust samples and won't talk to me even if I could procure more for them (I even have a potential second source not connected to Millette or the EPA but they won;t talk to me).

So there will BE nio experiment.

Apparently when you speculate it really is speculation. When I speculate (Millette testing at 430C), it somehow becomes accusation.

Unquestionably, if Mark is out of sample material he cannot proceed with his investigation.

There is no evidence other than your idle speculation that this is the case. I am sure Mark would welcome all the legitimate sample material he can obtain (no campfire ashes please).

The fact that he has not responded to your emails speaks more to how busy Mark has been, the fact that he does not know you, the flood of emails he gets from those sincerely interested in his work, and possibly he has observed your disingenuous investigation.

"They had bad luck with henryco, if you remember, who said he couldn't find evidence of nnothermite."

I recall it differently and so does our mutual acquaintance Ziggi;

"HenryCo did confirm that the composition of the red layer matches thermite, meaning he confirmed the basic iron-oxide/aluminum data, but Chris of course ignores that.

HenryCo did not confirm the ignition of his chips but he speculated that this could be due to the fact that he was stuck with red-only chips to test, and that these chips could be previously ignited red/gray chips, supported by the fact that they tended to have iron-spheres on the surface.

His paper focused on red-only chips due to lack of red/gray chips."​

"...So to summarize my predictions:...
2) If the test goes forward, their only "evidence" in favor of thermite will be the spiky DSC curve at 430 C.

3) No test capable of finding elemental aluminum will find it."

Dr. Harrit confirmed the necessary presence of elemental aluminium with the MEK test, as was disclosed in the 2009 Bentham paper.

The DSC spike at 430C confirmed ignition reflecting the required "activity".

Final confirmation of thermite was revealed by the elemental-iron rich residue evidence showing iron-oxide reduction and not the oxidation of a "burn".

 

[DGM]

Rust (iron oxide)(FeO) is inert..........................

<deleted>

The fruit is too low to bother with.

 

[GlennB]

<deleted>

The fruit is too low to bother with.

This was the essence of my deleted post above.

Iron oxide is so damn inert that they put it in thermite where it reacts mightily, a reaction which is at the very heart of MM's delusions.

This stupid burns worse than thermite

 

[DGM]

This was the essence of my deleted post above.

Iron oxide is so damn inert that they put it in thermite where it reacts mightily, a reaction which is at the very heart of MM's delusions.

This stupid burns worse than thermite

It does explain the belief in the Harrit et al "scientists".

 

[jaydeehess]

This was the essence of my deleted post above.

Iron oxide is so damn inert that they put it in thermite where it reacts mightily, a reaction which is at the very heart of MM's delusions.

This stupid burns worse than thermite

Yes, the supposedly inert red iron oxide undergoes a redox reaction with aluminum in a thermite compound.

However simply burning/oxidizng in air probably not gonna happen unless its going to magnetite from hematite.

OTOH no one has bothered to ignite these chips in the absence of oxygen so its not a given that they are self oxidizing.
Besides which, thermite normally requires a high temp ignition source whereas these chips are supposedly going off at only 430C

 

[DGM]

Yes, the supposedly inert red iron oxide undergoes a redox reaction with aluminum in a thermite compound.

However simply burning/oxidizng in air probably not gonna happen unless its going to magnetite from hematite.

OTOH no one has bothered to ignite these chips in the absence of oxygen so its not a given that they are self oxidizing.
Besides which, thermite normally requires a high temp ignition source whereas these chips are supposedly going off at only 430C

Not to forget, MM is the only one claiming pure FeO. Everyone else is saying rusted steel.

I'm sure MM didn't mean to be deceptive.

 

[Porkpie Hat]

[qimg]http://conleys.com.au/smilies/clap.gif[/qimg] [qimg]http://conleys.com.au/smilies/clap.gif[/qimg]

Maybe it's because thermXte causes a different kind of heat?

[/TrutherMode]

I had my "bleever" bro in law sit down with a thermal engineer I know who had his credentials since before I was born. He tried pretty much the exact argument and believe it or not....didn't convince my friend of any nefarious plot!

 

[Porkpie Hat]

Its typical truther raising the level of conspiracy to nonsense levels.
IF (if, if, if) therem?te was used then the best bet for a truther conspiracy would be to simply state that there was not enough heat to do the job by office fires alone so THEY painted therm?te onto the steel on the top 20 floors of the towers to add enough heat to ensure collapse initiation, in full knowledge that a top down floor collapse would result in a progression through to total collapse.

In similar fashion with WTC 7, all they really had to do was claim therm?te at the connection between the girder and column 79, progression to collapse then ensues after column 79 fails.

But nooooo, instead we have to have soopernanohushaboom explosive therm?te clandestinely installed throughout the towers and WTC 7, fake aircraft, modified aircraft, etc. etc. etc.

Even Rube Goldberg would be shaking his head and asking, "what's the point??".

 

[ozeco41]

...It's a waste of time and my grandson is more logical, committed and energetic at 3 years old than most internet truthers. I'd rather play with him that try to smash through the brick wall of ignorance known as the truth movement.

Talking about grandsons...
...my grandson at age about 4 did some physical modelling experiments to support a claim I made in a post here somewhere. I said - expecting it to be obvious - "Catenary sag is a very powerful force multiplier" or words to that effect. Copped ridicule from some so called "engineers" and I responded "My grandson would understand better than you".

Grandson came visiting a week or so later. so - set up a catenary - horizontally polarised for experimental convenience.

Here two of the series of graphics.

_____

Grandson pushed catenary and dragged the "column" about 4-5 inches closer. Then tried to directly push in the "column". Couldn't do it.

Q: "Aiden - which was easier* - using the rope* to pull the trees* in OR pushing the tree*"
A: "Using the rope* was a lot easier Grandpa!"


QED - my grandson understands what some engineers posting on JREF didn't understand.

* Concessions to the age/vocabulary of said Grandson:
- "rope"=="catenary";
- "tree"=="column", AND
- "easier"=="is a very powerful force multiplier".

....for any who cannot translate

 

[gmanontario]

Talking about grandsons...
...my grandson at age about 4 did some physical modelling experiments to support a claim I made in a post here somewhere. I said - expecting it to be obvious - "Catenary sag is a very powerful force multiplier" or words to that effect. Copped ridicule from some so called "engineers" and I responded "My grandson would understand better than you".

Grandson came visiting a week or so later. so - set up a catenary - horizontally polarised for experimental convenience.

Here two of the series of graphics.
[qimg]http://conleys.com.au/webjref/catsag2.jpg[/qimg]_____[qimg]http://conleys.com.au/webjref/catsag3.jpg[/qimg]
Grandson pushed catenary and dragged the "column" about 4-5 inches closer. Then tried to directly push in the "column". Couldn't do it.

Q: "Aiden - which was easier* - using the rope* to pull the trees* in OR pushing the tree*"
A: "Using the rope* was a lot easier Grandpa!"


QED - my grandson understands what some engineers posting on JREF didn't understand.

* Concessions to the age/vocabulary of said Grandson:
- "rope"=="catenary";
- "tree"=="column", AND
- "easier"=="is a very powerful force multiplier".

....for any who cannot translate

My grandson would use the rope for climbing or launching things.

Good for him though. He's off to a good start in life when he can figure out things like that.

 

[tsig]

This was the essence of my deleted post above.

Iron oxide is so damn inert that they put it in thermite where it reacts mightily, a reaction which is at the very heart of MM's delusions.

This stupid burns worse than thermite

Obviously it reacts violently because it is inert .

 

[chrismohr]

Temporary Removal of MM Embargo

MM I have given up on you, but I must acknowledge your correction of my misstatement re iron oxide flakes igniting at 430 C. What I don't know: if there is any elemental iron in the chips at first that COULD ignite at 430. Plus, of course, since known thermite ignites at over 100 degrees hotter than Harrit's chips, my error does not change the fact that these chips have no thermite in them. An interesting link: http://www.reade.com/products/35-ox...eous-iron-oxide-natural-specular-hematite-ore This makes me wonder what they mean by iron oxide ignition temp at >1000C. Cuz FYI 1000C is around the bulk temperature of the WTC fires.

As for Henryco, when I first saw his comment that he could not show the presence of thernmite in his chips, I asked another 9/11 Truth activist and he said Henryco was a conspiracy theorist and paranoid! Now you have a new line: that he got only the red chips. Why would Harrit/Jones have done this to him if this is true? Nothing about this makes sense.

And now: I have given up on you because you think it's OK to say that Millette "likely" burned the chips at 430 C (secretly). Even worse, you try to equate that with me hypothesizing that Mark Basile has run low on dust samples. I gave two reasons for this 1) according to you, he has burned these chips hundreds of times and 2) two different 9/11 Truth people have recently asked me if I can help them get chips for Basile's experiment. My hypothesis, that Basile may be low in his supply, is not an accusation of fraud, and it is based on some evidence. Your accusation that Millette "likely" burned the chips at 430 C and then (I presume) never told anyone is completely devoid of evidence, blatantly contradicts his statement that his materials characterizations prove no thermite, and worst of all is an unfounded accusation of scientific fraud. Since you cannot see the difference between my hypothesis and your accusation, and since you continue to think it's OK to throw out this accusation, I have given up on you entirely.

 

[jaydeehess]

^^^ Nice explanation Chris

 

[Oystein]

I thought this would probably be better in a separate thread although I'm prepared for it to be merged.

Please could you clarify, referencing the individual experiments by the number in the list, why you think that the particular test (or group of tests) is pointless or not pointless for ascertaining what the red/gray material is in the WTC dust. The following is from markbasile.org but my numbering.

1. - Red/gray chip separation using optical microscopy and magnetic attraction to assist in isolation of particles of interest.

2. - Optical images of collected particulates as collected at appropriate magnifications to record condition as collected.

3. - SEM/EDX with elemental quantification of red/gray chips, both red and gray layers.

4. FTIR analysis of organic components of red/gray chips, both red and gray layers.

5. ESCA small spot technique with argon ion sputter for depth profiling to definitively establish the presence of elemental aluminum within the red layer of the red/gray chips. Scans of gray layer also to be taken to add to information base.

6. DSC analysis of red/gray chips focusing on exothermic/endothermic reactions near 400 degrees C. Some chips to be scanned in inert atmosphere and some in air or oxygen containing gas stream.

7. SEM/EDX with elemental quantification of residual products of DSC analysis of red/gray chips.

8. Optical images of reaction products after DSC experiments.

Georgio, I see you haven't revisited this thread. Content with the answers given?

 

[Georgio]

Georgio, I see you haven't revisited this thread. Content with the answers given?

What I think I should have asked for initially is for someone to go through all the numbered tests in the opening post and predict what the result would be and why under 2 different sets of conditions:

Condition 1: If the chips were not some form of thermite
Condition 2: If the chips were some form of thermite

That's what I was trying to understand.