Is it so much fun to be a prostitute ?

[dann]

"condidered to be free" by whom? through what means? If the economy is good, would prostitutes be less likely to solicit their service to those they do not know, since they are less desperate? IE, a boatload of forigners looking for a cheap night may not find any, because the prostitutes are well paid, and not looking for a quick buck
What do they provide to support their conjecture that the increase is due to a poor economy? Should I believe every unsupported conjecture of every news article?

No, maybe you shouldn't, but this was the article supplied by SRW to prove his point!

 

[RussDill]

PS

You don't even become just a little bit suspicious about the kind of profession that apparently needs mandatory drug tests

...you mean like professional athletes, doctors, pilots, operators of heavy machinery, etc?


[qoute]
health screenings
[/quote]

Like food service workers, medical professionals, etc?

and on-site security to deal with unruly customers?

You mean like at a bar, club, or social security office?

I would be rather offended and very worried if anybody suggested introducing these measures at my high school!

Well lets see..you aren't likely to kill anyone while in highschool due to poor health.

 

[RussDill]

So pretty much all poor people in the USA are self-destructive - and therefore poor?!

Poor by other countries standards. Our poverty line is very high. The people who wander the streets are usually self-destructive, mentally ill (most common case), or enjoy the lifestyle of being a wanderer (particularly in very urban areas)

 

[dann]

Wow...you mean people sent him tons of money and goods and his people weren't poor? Neato, what a marvelous leader, whoring his nation out for money. (cuban missile crisis)

Yes, Cubans weren't poor back then. No, trying to defend a country from American attacks can't be considered "whoring his nation out for money." By the way, the Cubans were very angry at the Russians for giving in to the demands of the USA and removing the missiles again.

Or was attempting to provide the image of a utopia.

Yes, eliminating poverty, illiteracy and prostitution was just an evil plot to make poverty, illiteracy and prostitution look bad!

How about a police state? (which isn't necessary, just adequate enforcement and coverage)

Yes, how about it? A police state and adequate enforcement and coverage doesn't help much if people are starving. Look at the death patrols in other Latin American countries ...

You act as if there is only one reason people would turn to prostitution and that it would always be their last resort.

I'm glad that I got that point through to you!

 

[RussDill]

This is not analysis, it's fiction! And already covered. Eliminate poverty, give an education to prostitutes who lack one, give them a job: no prostitution.

OK, but why would that change the demand for prostitution, and thus make the price soar, thus enticing people to the profession?

"45. In her meetings in Havana, as well as in the provinces, most of the Special Rapporteur's interlocutors held that, as a result of the Cuban revolution, Cuban society had succeeded in virtually eliminating prostitution. Prior to 1959, prostitution was widely stated to have existed out of need; the improvements in the economic and social status of women thereafter had eliminated that need."
http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/0/cab2b9bda29591c0802568ac00531e1b/$FILE/G0010672.doc

Yes, socialist and communist countries during the cold war tried very hard to make their country apear to be a utopia. North Korea still does this.

 

[dann]

"condidered to be free" by whom?

Considered to be free of prostitution by almost everybody!

through what means? If the economy is good, would prostitutes be less likely to solicit their service to those they do not know, since they are less desperate?

Yes, exactly! (But, of course, it would have to be the kind of economy that actually try to better the living conditions of its people!)

IE, a boatload of forigners looking for a cheap night may not find any, because the prostitutes are well paid, and not looking for a quick buck

Exactly, and therefore no longer prostitutes!

 

[RussDill]

As "technology improves" a lot of people are made redundant. Technological improvement in a market economy does not better the situation of poor people, sorry! One of the apparent contradictions in a capitalist economy is that when you make things easier to produce, people lose their jobs, i.e. their way of earning a living. (Didn't the article cover this?)

The problem seems to be that you have no clue about how a capitalist economy. If something cost $50 to produce before, but now costs $40, what do you think the consumer will do with that extra $40? They will spend it on something else, which means that the jobs are not lost.

The wealth of a nation is measured in productivity. The more productive a nation is, the more "things" it has. The cheaper it is able to produce things, the more people can by them.

 

[RussDill]

Glad that point through to you!

So you agree that they is a broad sprectrom reasons other than poverty that would cause people to engage in prostitution. Great. So then we can agree that eliminating poverty would only elimitate one of the reasons for prostitution. After that, we can see how the elimitation of poverty would increase the wages of prostitutes.

 

[dann]

Note the "i needed a lot of money" someone who is doing it because they are starving would just say "I needed money, and I needed it quickly"

No, someone who is starving will say: "I need bread!" I never claimed that this woman was starving, but if you read the text, you'll notice that she needs to pay the rent etc. which is why she needs a lot of money.

 

[dann]

aparently, she lived above her means and decimated her bank account. Boo hoo.

No, apparently her boyfriend had emptied her bank account.
But you don't really want to make an effort at finding out what you are talking about, are you?

 

[toddjh]

"Things"?! No, using the word "things", you abstract from any difference, but the difference really wasn't my point anyway, was it?!

Honestly, I no longer have any idea what your point is, apart from "eliminating poverty."

Not a very good argument for making changes, is it?

Hmm? I think "it can't possibly get any worse" is one of the best arguments for making changes. It means you have nothing to lose.

My parentheses, dann.

Yes, when you do things incorrectly and don't apply the rules properly, you often get suboptimal results. I don't see what your point is here.

To me your goal seems to be to supplement it with the legal kind and all the advantages you think it has.

I don't know where you get that from. You're saying you don't think the presence of legal prostitution would reduce the presence of illegal prostitution at all? I can't agree with that. I think a great many customers would prefer to go the legal route, even if it is more expensive.

No, it does not ignore the fact, it explains the fact.

The title of the article is, "Why are many people in developing countries poor?" It does not attempt to address the question of poverty generally, it attempts to address the question of why developing countries have so many more poor than elsewhere. Frankly, I don't think it does a very good job with that. It then attempts to link that issue to the distribution of wealth within developed countries, by telling us that politicians say things I've never heard them say. Perhaps it's just the U.S., but I've never heard anyone say wages are too high. In fact, in the last presidential election, I heard both candidates say they thought the minimum wage ought to be raised.

As "technology improves" a lot of people are made redundant. Technological improvement in a market economy does not better the situation of poor people, sorry!

This is demonstrably untrue. Poor people today are much better off than they were a couple hundred years ago. Almost unbelievably so. Pretty much no one in the United States is starving. Even among the very poor, most have electricity, clean water (hot and cold), adequate heating, refrigerators, televisions, and even computers. They cannot be turned down for medical treatment, if required. I imagine the situation is much the same in Europe.

One of the apparent contradictions in a capitalist economy is that when you make things easier to produce, people lose their jobs, i.e. their way of earning a living. (Didn't the article cover this?)

If one considered your article from some web site to be the inerrant truth, that might be a problem. But like I said, all you have to do is look at the real world to see that that simply isn't the case.

YES!!! I am in favour of abolishing prostitution! And NO, not just in some situations.

Okay, I now understand your position, but I hope you can understand why people are confused about what you're saying. You said repeatedly that you're not in favor of abolishing prostitution (meaning one thing), and then you turn around and say you are (meaning something different). It's hard to follow exactly what you're talking about when the context doesn't make it clear which synonym you mean.

I am indeed in favour of ABOLISHING prostitution, but not by making it illegal! By eliminating the poverty that forces upon them very bad alternatives.

Step 1: Steal underwear.
Step 2: ?
Step 3: Eliminate poverty.

Again, why do you focus on prostitution exclusively? Would you say you are also in favor of abolishing waiting tables, or working at the cash register at Wal-Mart? Those are also jobs that people would only take when they need money. What's the difference, except that you find prostitution more distasteful personally? I'd really like an answer to this.

Jeremy

 

[dann]

Yes, give up locking up political dissadents, what a horrible price.

And that would help prostitutes how?
(We could go into a discussion of political dissidents in Cuba, but maybe we should take it to another thread then?)

 

[SRW]

No, not really, but it does make one mistake! It forgets to menstion that the "gradual increase of tourism in Cuba" happened in an attempt to fight the poverty that had returned to Cuba in the "Special Period"!

And, no, I don't think they are mad, and no, they are not placed in the madhouse, and no, I don't think that this measure is going to put a stop to prostitution in Cuba. That would take the elimination of poverty, a self-supporting economy in Cuba that could support its inhabitants.

dann you cannot have it both ways, you posted this article from the U.N. so I assume you believe what it says. However when it contradicts your arguments you say it is in error, or wrong. If you read the entire article it sounds like it is very skeptical of what it is being told by the Cubans, and also is unable to carry on independent investigations.

Mad house is what I call an instution where people go for Behavior Modification.

 

[dann]

How about you look at somewhere where it has been legalized that is not a corrupted societity? Take legal prostitution in nevada for instance.

Denmark and Germany are not particularly corrupt, I think.

 

[dann]

...you mean like professional athletes, doctors, pilots, operators of heavy machinery, etc?
health screenings
Like food service workers, medical professionals, etc?
You mean like at a bar, club, or social security office?

Yes, and how exactly are all these jobs related to prostitution?

Well lets see..you aren't likely to kill anyone while in highschool due to poor health.

No, nor due to anything else.

 

[dann]

Poor by other countries standards. Our poverty line is very high. The people who wander the streets are usually self-destructive, mentally ill (most common case), or enjoy the lifestyle of being a wanderer (particularly in very urban areas)

I guess the poor bastards with their plastic cups that I have to pass every day on my way to work are just enjoying their lifestyle. What a comforting thought!
And of course you are "not a heartless bastard who doesn't believe in helping underpriveledged children just because they are less underpriveledged".

 

[pgwenthold]

Yes, and how exactly are all these jobs related to prostitution?

They are all examples of jobs that require regular drug testing, health checkups, and protection from customers. At least to some extent.

You said you didn't trust occupations like that.

 

[CFLarsen]

Denmark and Germany are not particularly corrupt, I think.

Denmark competes with New Zealand in being the least corrupt country in the world.

 

[dann]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by dann
This is not analysis, it's fiction! And already covered. Eliminate poverty, give an education to prostitutes who lack one, give them a job: no prostitution.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, but why would that change the demand for prostitution, and thus make the price soar, thus enticing people to the profession?

I never said that it would "change the demand", did I? But it virtually eliminated prostitution in Cuba from 1960 till the early 90s!

Yes, socialist and communist countries during the cold war tried very hard to make their country apear to be a utopia. North Korea still does this.

Yes, North Korea still does this. And has a hard time doing so, because it apparently is all apperance.

 

[dann]

The problem seems to be that you have no clue about how a capitalist economy. If something cost $50 to produce before, but now costs $40, what do you think the consumer will do with that extra $40? They will spend it on something else, which means that the jobs are not lost.

The problem seems to be that you cannot do basic arithmetic. I have heard this explanation before, and it is still wrong: The consumer gets neither an extra $40 or, more correctly, an extra $10, because HE'S BEEN MADE REDUNDANT! He already lost his job, and he hasn't even got the money he used to have.

The wealth of a nation is measured in productivity. The more productive a nation is, the more "things" it has. The cheaper it is able to produce things, the more people can by them.

The wealth of a nation is very different from the wealth of its inhabitants. You Americans ought to know. This, by the way, is the reason why the health care system in a relatively poor country such as Cuba is so excellent. And it is the reason why you have so many prostitutes in the world's richest nation, the USA.