Is it so much fun to be a prostitute ?

dann said:
Yes, and how exactly are all these jobs related to prostitution?

They require health screening, drug tests, etc. You are saying that prostitution is bad on the merit that it requires these things.


No, nor due to anything else.

OK then, then it isn't a surprise that they don't require these things for high schoolers, but do for say, airline pilots or crane operators.
 
toddjh said:
You can settle this whole thing by saying one sentence: "I would like to see waitressing abolished."
That would clear everything up.
No, it wouldn't! And I can't! It would be too embarrassing. What do I tell all the people who have seen me waitressing (albeit for free!)? http://www.salsafritz.dk/salsaskole/billeder-kka-fest/b-kka-dec-00/original/image22.jpg
I can't get any closer than this - and I have said it before: I would like to see the conditions abolished that force people to choose between becoming waitresses, check-out girls or prostitutes, i.e. poverty!
 
Originally posted by dann
I never said that it would "change the demand", did I? But it virtually eliminated prostitution in Cuba from 1960 till the early 90s!

According to who? I would be highly skeptical that Cuba did not have prostitution, but it was not a problem, so it was overlooked. Also, if prostitution carries an 8 YEAR sentance (which I'd consider a human rights abuse), thats probably pretty good at discouraging it too.


Yes, North Korea still does this. And has a hard time doing so, because it apparently is all apperance.

And the soviet union did this as well. I think it would be difficult to find wholey unbiased reports on prostitution statistics from Cuba. In fact, I'd be surpised if you could find numbers, just vague statements.
 
dann said:
I said that I didn't trust doctors and pilots? Where?
.

Back on page 4 or so when you wrote:

"You don't even become just a little bit suspicious about the kind of profession that apparently needs mandatory drug tests, health screenings and on-site security to deal with unruly customers?"

You imply here that you are suspicious of the kind of profession that apparently needs mandatory drug tests, health screenings, and on-site security to deal with unruly customers. That would apply to legal prostitution, but it also applies to other professions including professional athletes and, yes, pilots.

Hence, if you are suspicious of the kind of profession that needs mandatory drug tests, health screenings, and on-site security, then I would conclude that you are suspicious of pilots.

Now, if you are NOT suspicious of pilots, then you yourself are apparently not always suspicious of a profession that requires these things. It is something else.


[I deleted all the dodging, weaving, and backtracking)
 
dann said:
The problem seems to be that you cannot do basic arithmetic. I have heard this explanation before, and it is still wrong: The consumer gets neither an extra $40 or, more correctly, an extra $10, because HE'S BEEN MADE REDUNDANT! He already lost his job, and he hasn't even got the money he used to have.

This would only work if a huge number of consumers worldwide (ie, greater than 50%) were the ones who lost their jobs. The point is, the othe 99.99% of people that still have jobs now spend that extra $40 on something else. That 0.01% of the population can find a job providing these new serivces.

Lemme give you an example.

A society exists and only produces wheat. Each citizen must work their full day to provide enough wheat.

Suddenly, someone invents something that automates portions of the wheat production. By your logic, this would be bad, because you wouldn't need as many workers, and these workers would then starve because they could not buy wheat, since they did not work.

Lets say 30% of the workforce gets laid off. There is now a surplus of grain, can the extra grain be bartered for something?

Certainly, the extra 30% of the workers grows grapes and makes wine, which it barters for wheat. At this point, everyone is all working the same number of hours they used to, getting the same amount of grain, but now has wine with their meal.


The wealth of a nation is very different from the wealth of its inhabitants.

The nation itself here owns very little, the people own property, either by themselves, or through cooperation with other citizens in what is known as a corporation.


You Americans ought to know. This, by the way, is the reason why the health care system in a relatively poor country such as Cuba is so excellent.

Oh yes, I always here about those miraculous medical advancements and groundbreaking surgeries in Cuba. BTW, do have a source for this "excellent" Cuba health care system? Oh, wait, they do have an excellent health care system, for the social elite:

http://www.canfnet.org/Issues/medicalapartheid.htm


And it is the reason why you have so many prostitutes in the world's richest nation, the USA.

I'm not sure what you are trying to claim here. Are you trying to say that the US has a proportionally large population of people who cannot make money any other way than prostitution?
 
dann said:
There is one reason why people turn to prostitution. Therefore you cannot eliminate it by forbidding it. You have to eliminate poverty.

...most prostitutes are people who can easily find work elsewhere, or already have work elsewhere. The $50 a trick ones are largely in it for the drugs, and the escorts usually already have work, or left their work to become an escort. There is no limit to the opportunities to earn money in a free country, some people just take what they see to be the easy route.

Don't high paid escorts that already have another job, or left their job to become a full time escort kindof ruin your point?
 
dann said:


No strawman, pgwenthold! "It can't possibly get any worse", is an argument that you use when you don't know what is going to happen.

The reason it is a strawman is because no one is using "it can't possibly get worse" as an argument FOR anything!

What they are saying is that there are many good reasons to think that legalizing prostitution will make things better. That is the reason we should do it. However, things won't get worse, so you can't use that as an argument against doing it.

"Not an argument against" is not the same as "is an argument for."

And your comment that we don't "know" what is going to happen is incredibly misleading. It is true that we don't _know_ that is going to get better. But we basically do _know_ that it won't get worse (and you haven't disputed that claim). So it is not like we are acting out of complete ignorance. We may not know for sure what will happen (although know one ever knows for sure what will be the effect of any social change), but we do have a pretty reasonable idea of what will happen, and a darn good idea of what will not.
 
toddjh said:
It's a joke. It refers to any situation where there is a clear goal coupled with an extremely ill-defined plan for achieving it. You keep referring to "eliminating poverty" without any good suggestions for how we might do that.

You haven't figured it out yet?

dann's agenda is pretty clear to me. He's a communist, and he wants to institute a socialist system.

Why else do you think he is so much in love with Cuba? It's not because he loves the freedom it provides...
 
dann said:

No, that's not what I'm saying. Maybe it would. Maybe it would even bring more customers, those who didn't want to go to an illegal prostitute. In that case it wouldn't reduce illegal prostitution, it would increase the number of johns instead.
And you do tend to take the point of view of the consumer, don't you?

It may increase overall demand for prostitution, but would greatly decrease the demand for illegal prostitution. Its like legalizing pot.


Politicians and employers in Europe say it all the time. (BTW, did Bush then raise the minimum wages after the election?)

Most states have their own minimum wage. The US is a very large conglomerate of vastly different environments. A wage that would get you a nice house in one city wouldn't get you a studio apartment in another. Most on the right would prefer to leave the sales tax issue up to individual states, and encourage them to do so if they feel that it is necessary.


No, it is demonstrably true! It depends: When a company introduces new technology to turn out more goods using fewer workers, it may simply lay off the rest - or it may become more competitive and hire more people (again).

It would sell more product because people have more money to buy more product. If they instead lay people off, that dollar is going elsewhere, and another company is expanding and hiring because of it.


Or it may move to Mexico. Or ... In Denmark many slaughterhouses are moving to Poland. My point was: technological improvement in a market economy doesn't take place because the workers are going to benefit from it. And very often they don't!

Shifts of labor from one industry to another, or from an old technology to a new are necessary for an economy to advance. How many jobs do you think there were cleaning stables back in the day? There were layed off when the auto came.

Many pro labor groups would rather tinker with the economy and prevent buisnesses from laying off workers when shifts in the economy are necessary. In this case, you have a large number of workers doing unproductive work, and nothing the company can do about it. Or, maybe the could pack up, and move somewhere else, where they can choose an appropriate work force.


Apparently you've never heard about people in the real world being laid off as a result of industrial rationalization. OK, then you haven't.

It happens all the time, the economy is not static, requirements for labor forces change. Being in engineering, these changes happen very fast, everyone I know has been layed off multiple times, I've been layed off twice in recent years. However, everyone I know finds something new and exciting to work on. Course, the smart ones see the winds of change, and jump ship early.


I don't know what underwear and stealing has to do with this.

Its a south park episode that makes fun of a good number of dot com ventures, who have a product they know they can make, but have no idea how to sell it.

The underwear gnomes collect underwear, the southpark kids ask them why, they explain:

step 1: collect underwear
step 2: <everyone is silent>
step 3: Profit!


I'm not in favour of the circumstances that force these alternatives on people.

I've been out of work, and known a lot of people who've been out of work. I've seen software developers take jobs at starbucks or walgreens because they are having trouble finding a new job. They work through it, have an income, and eventually find the position they are looking for.

Please explain how prostitution is being forced on anyone. Unless you are dying of hunger, it is a choice.
 
toddjh said:
But you speak of wanting to abolish prostitution, but not wanting to abolish waitressing. Why the dichotomy?

You know, poverty is the only reason people waitress. If we could eliminate poverty, we could eliminate waitressing. Heck, people only take jobs they don't like because of poverty, and frankly, thats clearly wrong. Could you imagine yourself being forced into a career you don't enjoy?
 
dann said:
That's a promise? You have influence?

Its the reason that considerations for a progerssive cut back of the embargo was thrown out.

I'm sure this list would also be a great start:

`But the government revealed an intransigent reliance on political oppression to crush internal opposition through its repressive measures against dissidents, failure to amnesty political prisoners, continuing blockage of human rights monitoring, creation of new laws restricting human rights and refusal to dismantle oppressive legal structures,'' it added.

Prisons denied medical treatment to many political prisoners, and inmates who complained about their treatment ``faced retaliatory measures including beatings, isolation and criminal prosecution,'' the report said.

Cuba continued to deny international human rights groups access to the island ``while harassing and prosecuting those attempting to monitor rights domestically.''

http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/cubacolumbia12597.html
 
dann said:
No, it wouldn't! And I can't! It would be too embarrassing. What do I tell all the people who have seen me waitressing (albeit for free!)? http://www.salsafritz.dk/salsaskole/billeder-kka-fest/b-kka-dec-00/original/image22.jpg
I can't get any closer than this - and I have said it before: I would like to see the conditions abolished that force people to choose between becoming waitresses, check-out girls or prostitutes, i.e. poverty!

OK, eliminate poverty, and no one has to work the check stand, waitress, or be a prostitute.

Now, go to the store and try to buy something...no one there to check you out. Now what? I know, we'll pay check out people more money, and they will be enticed back to their job as a checkout person. Of course, with a labor market this tight, every industry will be attempting to pay more to keep workers. Cost of goods and wages will rise, inflation occurs, economy sags, and eventually you are back where you started.

In reality, this situation would be slow, and would reach equilibrium without massive swings. You will always have someone there to check you out, because they store will always need to negotiate with individuals a pay rate at which they will work there.

I don't care how weathly everyone is, you'll still have someone working the checkout, and you'll still have someone serving tables, and you'll still have prostitutes. That is the nature of capitalism. If there is demand, there will be some price at which supply will meet that demand.

Don't you realize that your utopia of no waiters and on checkout people is incredibly naive?
 
dann said:
Thank you for the information. I can't see what it's got to do with anything, but still ...

You mentioned the horrible things that happen in contries where prostitution is legal.
 
pgwenthold said:
You haven't figured it out yet?
dann's agenda is pretty clear to me. He's a communist, and he wants to institute a socialist system.
Man, you are soooo good! I'm really impressed!
I have quotations from Marx and Brecht in my sig line, I praise Cuba's measures to abolish prostitution, and in spite of these attempts to hide the truth about myself, you nevertheless succeeded in revealing my hidden agenda and my secret identity! Amazing!
Yet another enemy of freedom has been revealed! Congratulations!

No, pgwenthold, it's even more complicated than that. I used to fight the local Moscow communists in the streets when they tried to prevent me or others from saying what we wanted. And not because I found Mao, Kim il Sung or any of the others any better!
As I already said, I'll get back to you tomorrow.
 
RussDill said:
Don't you realize that your utopia of no waiters and on checkout people is incredibly naive?

Can't eat out, can't buy groceries...my God, they'll all starve! :D

Jeremy
 
toddjh said:
Can't eat out, can't buy groceries...my God, they'll all starve! :D

Don't worry, the great leader will force those that would seek to destroy the republic of the people to work in checkout camps where they will be re-educated on the virtue of service to the great people of our republic.
 
As a final point I would like to draw a parallel; a parallel that has been drawn on this thread before. This is the parallel between thieves and prostitutes.

It might seem that Dan's hypothesis states that, "by eliminating poverty one could eliminate prostitution."

Drawing the prostitute / thief parallel...

I might speculate that Dan would also hypothesize that "by eliminating poverty one could eliminate thievery."

Anecdote: I work on Wall St.

Fact: We have the highest concentration of privately, and corporate held, wealth in the world. Even the "poorest" broker would be rich by most standards of living in the world, the country and even the city. Every year dozens of brokers get convicted of various crimes that, when boiled down, are basic thievery.

Evidence: Eliminating poverty does NOT eliminate thievery.

Theory: Eliminating poverty would not eliminate prostitution.

With that, I take my leave of this thread.

Good day.
 
dann said:
I posted it, but I never claimed that I agreed with it in its entirety. I have explained to you where I disagree, right?! Do you understand what I say? The article neglects to say that tourism was (re)introduced in an attempt to improve the Cuban economy in the "Special Period" of the '90s when poverty had returned to the country. The article fails to mention this, making it sound as if one remedy to improve the living conditions of the Cubans, tourism, alone was what caused prostitution to reemerge. It does not, however, say that poverty was not the cause. And it is rather unambiguous when it points at the elimination of poverty as the thing that eliminated prostitution after the revolution!
And, yes, the article is skeptical! Would you have believed it otherwise? And, yes, the UN investigator is not able to carry out independent investigations.

I don't know anything about "Behavior Modification" in Cuba. You seem to imply that it is some kind of concentration camp. It might, however, just be a question of modifying the behavior of prostitutes by giving them an education. I don't know, do you?
But if Castro wanted to encourage prostitution, as you or somebody else claimed, it is hard to see why he would want to modify their behavior in a way that made the prostitutes stop being prostitutes.



Did you actually read the article you posted? The Behavior modification in Cuba was discussed in the article you posted. You cannot cherry pick what sound good to you and pull that out of context.

So if the Un investigator is not able to verify what they are being told then the entire report is in doubt. Even the parts you agree with.

Is still see not evidence that Poverty eliminats Prostitution.
 
In the City of Santa Cruz Ca. ( also known as the peoples republic of Santa Cruz) The city cracked down on Massage Parlors. The ones they closed down were the ones that were really brothels.

The reason for the crack down was that there were many legitimate Massage Parlors opening up and the workers at these establishments were upset about the other kind so they lobbied the city to crack down.

This cause a number of law suits, the one I remember was a guy
who sued because of discrimination. He was upset because ugly people had a hard time getting laid and needed the Massage Parlors to get off.
 

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