Is Islam an evil religion?

[Bill Thompson]

but your quotes doen't even work. (Unlike you, I actually have an open mind and I actually read what you thnik is evidence.)

For example:

"Because, under such and such tradition no one under the age of 15 was allowed to particpate at some place"
According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.
So what? Traditions are broken. This is a constrcted argument taken from bits and parts of other fact to construct an idea. It is not proof and it is not evidence. Traditions?? Give me a break. Traditions are broken all the time and there are mature 9 year olds who can take care of themselves like I am sure she was.

In contract there are direct quotes from her that whe was 9 years old.

Beat that. I await your response with great glee.

 

[A'isha]

In contract there are direct quotes from her that whe was 9 years old.

Beat that.

I did. Read again (such as the recorded ages of her sister).

The accounts of Ai'sha's age are contradictory, Bill. Again, broadly, Sunnis favor the passages saying she was younger, Shi'ites favor the passages saying she was older. But both sides believe they're right and have the documentary evidence to support their beliefs.

You know, the thing that you have repeated ad nauseam doesn't exist in Islam: different interpretations of unclear scriptures.

 

[Craig B]

Bill

I thought you might come up with this one.

If it is on a sleaze scale, Mohammed wins. Marrying a 9 year old that you lusted for since she was 6.... you gotta say Mohammed beats Smith, Hubbard and Jim Jones. That is why it is ok to marry a prepubescent girl in Iran today.

No he doesn't win. Nowhere near it. This is probably the winner:

Sanhedrin 55b ... R. Joseph said: Come and hear! A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition, and if her deceased husband's brother cohabits with her, she becomes his. The penalty of adultery may be incurred through her; ... she defiles him who has connection with her, ...
Maimonides, Mishneh Torah: "It is permitted to enter into privacy with a female child less than three years old and a male child less than nine years old. For [our Sages] only issued decrees concerning entering into privacy with a woman fit to engage in relations and a male fit to engage in relations." [i.e. girls and boys, of three and nine years of age respectively, are fit to engage in sexual relations.] Niddah 44b: A girl of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse ... If one was younger than this age intercourse with her is like putting a finger in the eye.

The Sages even discuss whether a girl's hymen regrows by age three, if she has sexual intercourse at a younger age, and how the attainment of marriageable age three years should be calculated according to the Jewish calendar.

Needless to say, anti-Semites have made much of this archaic drivel - high priests marrying three year olds etc. Here's a good one:

PEDOPHILIA: THE TALMUD'S DIRTY SECRET By Rev. Ted Pike 11 Oct 2006
For nearly a century, the Jewish-dominated Hollywood film industry and big media have conspicuously influenced Christian America away from Biblical morals and values. (See, "Jews Confirm Big Media Is Jewish") ... the Jewish media found exponential opportunities to hasten America’s moral decline. ... it hastened the sexual revolution to its next stage, homosexuality. Now, more than 40 years later, even homosexuality has lost its attraction to many children and grandchildren of the hippie generation. Pedophilia (sex with little boys and girls along with child pornography) is the latest underground obsession sweeping America and the world. ... Last fall, I alerted the nation to the power of the pedophile lobby in Congress; Sen. Edward Kennedy, long backed by homosexuals in support of the federal anti-hate bill, betrayed them to favor the evidently more powerful and rewarding pedophiles. ... In fact, footnote 5 to Sanhedrin 60b rejects the right of a Talmudic rabbi to disagree with ben Yohai's endorsement of pedophilia: "How could they [the rabbis], contrary to the opinion of R. Simeon ben Yohai, which has scriptural support, forbid the marriage of the young proselyte?" ... Gentile tolerance of Jewish pedophilia abruptly ended. ... Still, a shocking contradiction lingers: If Jews want to revere the transcendent wisdom and moral guidance of the Pharisees and their Talmud, they must accept the right of their greatest ancient sages to violate children. To this hour, no synod of Judaism has repudiated their vile practice. ... One passage in the Talmud gives permission for a woman who molested her young son to marry a high priest. ... A woman could molest a young boy without questions of morality even being raised: "…the intercourse of a small boy
In contrast to Simeon ben Yohai's dictum that sex with a little girl is permitted under the age of three years, the general teaching of the Talmud is that the rabbi must wait until a day after her third birthday. She could be taken in marriage simply by the act of rape.

R. Joseph said: Come and hear! A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition and if her deceased husband’s brother cohabits with her, she becomes his. (Sanh. 55b) A girl who is three years of age and one day may be betrothed by cohabitation. . . .(Yeb. 57b) A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition, and if her deceased husband’s brother cohabited with her she becomes his. (Sanh. 69a, 69b, also discussed in Yeb. 60b) It was taught: R. Simeon b. Yohai stated: A proselyte who is under the age of three years and one day is permitted to marry a priest, for it is said, But all the women children that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves, and Phineas (who was priest, the footnote says) surely was with them. (Yeb. 60b) [The Talmud says such three year and a day old girls are] . . . fit for cohabitation. . . But all women children, that have not known man by lying with him, it must be concluded that Scripture speaks of one who is fit for cohabitation. (Footnote to Yeb. 60b) The example of Phineas, a priest, himself marrying an underage virgin of three years is considered by the Talmud as proof that such infants are "fit for cohabitation."

But enough! You may see what racists and anti-Semites have made of this archaic material. Bill Thompson is following in a most ignoble and obnoxious tradition.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I did. Read again (such as the recorded ages of her sister).

The accounts of Ai'sha's age are contradictory, Bill. Again, broadly, Sunnis favor the passages saying she was younger, Shi'ites favor the passages saying she was older. But both sides believe they're right and have the documentary evidence to support their beliefs.

You know, the thing that you have repeated ad nauseam doesn't exist in Islam: different interpretations of unclear scriptures.

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".
Too funny!

Because someone happened to call her a lady she could not have been 9!! That is amaizing. And you belive that?

That is like saying because people called Jesus a Rabi and Rabis are married teachers, he must hae been married. No, that just means people called him Rabi and nothing more.

No, there is not conflecting information. There is constructed cherry picking by the faithful. Every one of your bits are just like that.

Since I KNOW you don't have an open mind and I KNOW you have not rad my links:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10197

I decided to create this thread to contain the evidence Muhammad was a pedophile because Muhammadans keep on repeating the same old lies again and again.

Various Muslim apologists regurgitate the same material that Aisha was not aged nine when Muhammad married and had sex with her. To refute them please refer to the debunking of Moiz Amjad.

An example is:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/aishahage.htm

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Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

 

[Bill Thompson]

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10197

SHAYKH GIBRIL HADDAD'S ORIGINAL DEBUNKING OF MOIZ AMJAD (AND T.O. SHANAVAS)


http://www.ummah.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=48327&page=7&pp=20

*Our Mother A'isha's Age At The Time Of Her Marriage to The Prophet*

Answered By Shaykh Gibril Haddad


*/To begin with, I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single dependable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really was an accepted norm./*


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Snipped for compliance with Rule 4. Do not copy and paste lengthy tracts of text from elsewhere. Just use a short quote and a link to the source.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

 

[Bill Thompson]

The majority of Muslims agree that Ayesha was only 9 years old when the Prophet married her. The following site makes no apology for her young age and accuses the modernists for humbugging the Westerns morality and denying the truth.

http://admin.muslimsonline.com/~islamawe/Polemics/aishah.html

http://www.muslimhope.com/AishaNine.htm

This is important to a widely practiced but overlooked practice today: child brides in Muslim lands due to Mohammed’s example.​

In Iran as of June 2002 it is legal for a 9 year old girl to marry with her parents’ permission. Voices Behind the Veil p.136-137​

In the Ivory Coast this book also tells of a 12 year old girl who would leave the house for hours before returning home. After her father tied her up, burned her back with a piece of iron, locked her up for three days with no food, he eventually married her of to a 40-year old man. He never sent her to school because he said that it would drive them from their tradition, they would start asking questions, and not want to marry until they are 19 or 20.​

The Taliban encouraged families to marry off their daughters as young as eight years old. (Voices Behind the Veil p.110)​

The Dallas Morning News Sep 28, 2003 p.1,10S had a story about the sad plight of Muslim Nigerian girls who were married very young, got pregnant and had labor before their small bodies were ready. It was actually somewhat of a gross story, basically of many girls who needed C-sections but did not get them. Many survived, but could not have any children due to their perforated uteruses.​

To understand the authoritative nature of the example of Mohammed, we have to understand something of the Muslim hadiths. They hold a higher place in Sunni Islam than church tradition does in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Sunni Muslims hold to six collections of hadiths as the most authoritative writings in Islam after the Qur’an. The rest of this paper shows that the accusation is completely true, according to numerous corroborating early Muslims sources. In addition to these quotes from the six authoritative hadiths is a reference from the highly respected early Muslim historians ibn Ishaq and al-Tabari.

I know you are incorrect and I have lots more proof. I await your response with great delight and glee.​

 

[Bill Thompson]

(continued quote)

ALI SINA REFUTES MUSLIM APOLOGETICS ABOUT AISHA'S AGE

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha_age.htm

Controversies about the age of Ayesha

-------------------------------------------------------------

This site also defends Muhammad for marrying Ayesha at 9 claiming that girls reach puberty at that age and therefore are considered adult and having sex with them at such tender age is acceptable.

http://bismikaallahuma.faithweb.com/aishah.html

However there are some “modernist” Muslims who dispute this fact. They argue:

(taken from http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-004.htm)

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Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

 

[Craig B]

Bill

Since I KNOW you don't have an open mind and I KNOW you have not rad my links:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

This is a crude hate site. Its stories about Islam and Muslims resemble those found in "Der Sturmer" about Jews. But I suppose you find this facility it offers useful for your preposterous cut and paste jobs:

This section of the forum is NOT for discussions. It is a database of documents, websites, books and other resources, to provide skeptics with the materials to compose their articles refuting Islam. Please place your links in the appropriate thread.

 

[pipelineaudio]

it seems fitting that as the Tu Quoque seems to be the argument of choice when it comes to debates between muslim apologists and skeptics, that every thread in the jref that mentions islam ends up in a tu quoque

 

[Bill Thompson]

I have to post these quotes here because you have demoinstrated that you have not clicked on the link to read them

MUSLIMHOPE DEBUNKS MOIZ AMJAD'S APOLOGETICS

http://www.muslimhope.com/aishanine.htm

A’isha: Mohammed’s Nine-Year Old Wife

April 2004 version
Numerous people have said that Mohammed had sex with his youngest wife, ‘Aisha, daughter of Abu Bakr, when he was 53 and she was only nine years old. Some Muslims deny that. If somebody were to claim Mohammed and ‘Aisha had sex when she was nine, and they were wrong, that would be a serious slander against Mohammed. On the other hand, if it were true, that would show a very different side of Mohammed that would shock many. So is this accusation against Mohammed true or false?

This paper will first give the evidence for A’isha being nine when her marriage was consummated, then raise 11 objections to this, and finally, ask what if each view were correct.

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Snipped for compliance with Rule 4. Stop posting lengthy copy and pasted tracts from elsewhere. Instead, post a short quote and a link to the source.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

 

[Bill Thompson]

There is lots lots more.

As I said, science and logic goes with where the majority of evidence points to.

 

[DC]

wow i was totaly misstaken about Bill, he does know there are different interpretations in Islam. he is currently using one interpretation to debunk another interpretation.

i honestly believed he was arguing there are no different interpretations in Islam.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Bill



http://www.faithfreedom.org/

This is a crude hate site. Its stories about Islam and Muslims resemble those found in "Der Sturmer" about Jews.

Isn't YOUR comment an attack agains the arguer and not tha argument?

This is called an Ad Hominem logical fallacy.

The news and history is a crude hate anti-muslim information.

Just because something is not the way we want it to be, does not make it untrue.

The facts are the facts. It is a fact that underaqge girls are married of in Iran, and in African countries.

Are facts also crude and anti-muslim?

That is like people who like Obama saying that the Economy in the USA is racist.

But I suppose you find this facility it offers useful for your preposterous cut and paste jobs:

Nice you pick sides.

She was doing this and while I read her links she refused to click on mine.

 

[Bill Thompson]

wow i was totaly misstaken about Bill, he does know there are different interpretations in Islam. he is currently using one interpretation to debunk another interpretation.

i honestly believed he was arguing there are no different interpretations in Islam.

You misquote me AGAIN.

I never exactly said there were not different interpreations of Islam. You surely are misinterpreting it.

 

[DC]

You misquote me AGAIN.

I never exactly said there were not different interpreations of Islam. You surely are misinterpreting it.

no, i didn't even quote you, i stated what i wrongly believed you were saying.

 

[Bill Thompson]

no, i didn't even quote you, i stated what i wrongly believed you were saying.

You do that all the time.

Is it intentional?

 

[Craig B]

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Author/Sina.htm

Look this stuff up, if you want to see Bill's sources of info.

My attitude is NOT "tu quoque". I say again: if Bill's arguments are valid, then they apply, in the underage sex case they apply "a fortiori" to Judaism. Similar abominations can be found in other holy books. If you want to say, all religions are evil, fine, I will shut up. But that's not what Bill's saying, and it most certainly isn't what Ali Sina's hate website is spouting.

Hate speech like this has consequences. One of Ali Sina's favourite contributors is Fjord man" (google his stuff up) whose hate speech was one of Bleivik's main inspirations.

And google up http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/VernonRichards50806.htm Nuking Mecca, by Vernon Richards. This is heady stuff!

 

[Bill Thompson]

Bill

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

This is a crude hate site. Its stories about Islam and Muslims resemble those found in "Der Sturmer" about Jews.

Or so we would like to believe.

I am not cutting articles from that site but rather a list of links from their forum that is open to anyone to log onto and disput them just like the furm here.

I look forward to the retorts from AntPogo. So far her list are construted suppositions and opinions and guesses that MIGHT support that this girl was older.

Ironically, if you flip this arugment on its head and think for a moment that Mohammed's bride really was a teenager (as ANTIPogo wants to belive for some strange reason) then Islam as it exists today is even more evil for different reasons. Islam would be more evil for today if the girl was not underange and is in need of change because as I stated before, most Muslims globally think she was 9 and they use this to justify their practice of marrying off underage girls

So if I was on some mission to make Islam look bad (as ANTPogo wants to think I am) I would be finding a way to agree with AntPogo.

But instead, I am going with where logic points to.

If I wanted to make Islam look even more evil, I will assume AntPogo was correct and support her theories.

But, then again, if I wanted Islam to look bad, i wouldn't have to do anything because she is doing that already.

 

[Bill Thompson]

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Author/Sina.htm

Look this stuff up, if you want to see Bill's sources of info.

Wrong again. I just said this.

It is from the forum side, not the op ed part


http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10197

 

[Bill Thompson]

it seems fitting that as the Tu Quoque seems to be the argument of choice when it comes to debates between muslim apologists and skeptics, that every thread in the jref that mentions islam ends up in a tu quoque

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html

It does not seem to fit here.

If the muslim apologists are right, then Islam -- as it exists and is practiced today in most of the world -- is worse !!

If history really said somehow that she was NOT 9, than the majority of Muslims are condoning what amounts to the practice rape currently in their countries.

Either way, AntiPogo cannot win if she is trying to support Islam, no matter which side she takes here.