Is Islam an evil religion?

[bikerdruid]

Mermi TV has proof.

Direct from the Mid East.

Are you too lazy to look or too afraid?
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=mermi+tv+child+rape&aq=f



That is one. There are even better ones.

And here, this is also what you are supporting and defending:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gays+hung+in+iran&aq=0

WWHMD What Would Harvey Milk Do?

mermi tv?
what next? WND?

 

[Craig B]

ANTPogo

According to some important Jewish sources, the Talmud and Mishneh
Torah, marriageable age is three years. See my post #303 this thread:

Quote:
Sanhedrin 55b ... R. Joseph said: Come and hear! A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition, and if her deceased husband's brother cohabits with her, she becomes his. The penalty of adultery may be incurred through her; ... she defiles him who has connection with her, ...
Maimonides, Mishneh Torah: "It is permitted to enter into privacy with a female child less than three years old and a male child less than nine years old. For [our Sages] only issued decrees concerning entering into privacy with a woman fit to engage in relations and a male fit to engage in relations." [i.e. girls and boys, of three and nine years of age respectively, are fit to engage in sexual relations.] Niddah 44b: A girl of three years and one day may be betrothed by intercourse ... If one was younger than this age intercourse with her is like putting a finger in the eye.

Over to you Bill.

 

[A'isha]

ANTPogo

According to some important Jewish sources, the Talmud and Mishneh
Torah, marriageable age is three years. See my post #303 this thread:

Over to you Bill.

I ran into this in the chapter of Dr. Ali's book discussing the Age of Ai'sha issue, though she says of it, "One prominent line of argument distorts a Talmudic discussion to suggest that Jewish law permits men to have sex with three-year-old girls."

The footnote there says "For a thorough discussion of the rabbinic issue at stake, see Meacham, 'Marriage of Minor Girls in Jewish Law.'" It appears to refer to "Marriage of Minor Girls in Jewish Law: A Legal and Historical Overview" by Tirzah Meacham.

Amazon doesn't carry that book, though I was able to find this article in the online Jewish Women Encylopedia that was written by her, covering some of the same material. Some of that stuff I can't even quote here, it's so explicit and frank in some of the rabbinical discussions of...er, the physiology of girls who reach the age of marriageable majority (twelve years and one day).

But this seems relevant:

If the young child is given a stone and throws it away and a nut and keeps it, he is considered legally capable of acquiring things for himself. The girl who can make that distinction is capable of being married off by a guardian, which would make her eligible for me’un (marriage refusal declaration). This is considered to be from the age of six or above (Rambam, Ishut 4:7). Prior to that time, kiddushin arranged by a guardian is not considered to have taken place and she need not even perform me’un to be released from the marriage. Above the age of ten she is considered to have reached an age of discernment and to repudiate a marriage by a guardian requires me’un. Between the ages of six and ten, her ability to understand the concept of marriage determines whether me’un would be necessary. Similarly, if a minor between the ages of six and ten who has no guardian understands buying and selling values, his/her sales and purchases of movable objects and the gifts (large and small, on the deathbed or otherwise) are valid (BT Gittin 59a; Rambam, Mekhira 29:8–10; Sefer ha-Bagrut 5: lines 70–87). A girl of this age who understands that divorce means separation from her husband, is capable of receiving the get [document declaring a divorce] from him from a marriage arranged by her father (Rambam, Gerushin 2:18).

EDIT: Or the section starting with this sentence: "The father’s right to contract marriage on behalf of his minor daughter has one other limitation: if the mode of acquisition in marriage is by sexual intercourse, she must be at least three years and a day old before her intercourse is considered legal."

Which brings me back to my question to Bill: do you judge Judaism and Jews vis a vis pediophilia the same as you judge Islam and Muslims?

 

[Craig B]

Is it distortion? The words seem plain enough. What is the purpose of these words if they don't mean what they seem to be saying? Does Dr Ali explain? It would interest me to know. Anyway no sane Jew pays the least attention to this stuff when considering marriage in the real world.

And I ask Bill again, are Muslims obliged to commit pedophile rape as a precept of their faith?

 

[A'isha]

Is it distortion? The words seem plain enough. What is the purpose of these words if they don't mean what they seem to be saying? Does Dr Ali explain? It would interest me to know.

She doesn't, she merely refers readers to Meacham's book. Though, as my edit above notes, Meacham's article does sort of talk about it in a context that doesn't seem like distortion, but more like a passing reference to a specialized circumstance.

Anyway no sane Jew pays the least attention to this stuff when considering marriage in the real world.

Of course they don't! And likewise, the majority of Muslims in the world today have no interest whatsoever in marrying underage girls, no matter what legal traditions might deem permissible from a religious standpoint.

But if Bill is going to vehemently condemn Islam and Muslims as pedophilic based on what its religious law says is allowable (regardless of what that majority of Muslims above actually personally think and do), then why does he not do the same for Jews and Judaism based on what its religious law says is allowable, regardless of what pretty much all Jews actually personally think and do?

 

[Foster Zygote]

In high school I was taught that the South wanted support from the Catholics and the story I was told was that Rome promised them support in the form of supplies and arms but backed out.

Then you were taught a lie. The Vatican never promised any sort of support to the Confederate States. Pope Pius IX did recognize Davis as the president of the Confederate States of America, but that's as far as it ever went.

I am not 100% sure if Charles Chiniquy was in Lincoln's cabnet but Chiniquy claims to have had a long friendship with Lincoln in his book, "Fifty Years in the Church of Rome". I bought and read this book years ago.

Here is What Chiniquy quotes Lincoln saying:
“This war would never have been possible without the sinister influence of the Jesuits. We owe it to Popery that we now see our land reddened with the blood of her noblest sons. Though there were great differences of opinion between the South and North, on the question of slavery, neither Jeff Davis nor any one of the leading men of the Confederacy would have dared to attack the North, had they not relied on the promise of the Jesuits, that, under the mask of Democracy, the money and the arms of the Roman Catholics, even the arms of France, were at their disposal if they would attack us.” Charles Chiniquy, Fifty Years in the Church of Rome, The Wickliffe Press, Protestant Truth Society, Wickliffe Avenue, 104 Hendon Lane, Finchley, London, N3., 1885, p. 388.

Go to the library and get the book.

If they do not have it (suspicious?), ask for it.

Did you even read my post? Charles Chiniquy was never a member of Lincoln's cabinet. He was a liar who was briefly represented by Lincoln in a legal matter. His book is a complete fabrication.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Is it distortion? The words seem plain enough. What is the purpose of these words if they don't mean what they seem to be saying? Does Dr Ali explain? It would interest me to know. Anyway no sane Jew pays the least attention to this stuff when considering marriage in the real world.

And I ask Bill again, are Muslims obliged to commit pedophile rape as a precept of their faith?

Keep in mind that "married" does not necessarily mean "having sex". In India today, it is common for couples to be married when only six or seven years old. But they do not begin living together until they are young adults.

 

[Craig B]

Keep in mind that "married" does not necessarily mean "having sex". In India today, it is common for couples to be married when only six or seven years old. But they do not begin living together until they are young adults.

Please be assured that the Talmudic reference is precisely about having sex. "Marriage by coition" is explicitly referred to, as i cite twice in my post above; and there is even a proposal by the Sages that the hymen of a girl YOUNGER than three years regrows following "coition".

 

[Bill Thompson]

Keep in mind that "married" does not necessarily mean "having sex". In India today, it is common for couples to be married when only six or seven years old. But they do not begin living together until they are young adults.

Hospital Emergency room workers in Iran would not think it is the same sort of thing in their Islamic Republic nor would human rights activists.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I ran into this in the chapter of Dr. Ali's book discussing the Age of Ai'sha issue, though she says of it, "One prominent line of argument distorts a Talmudic discussion to suggest that Jewish law permits men to have sex with three-year-old girls."

Which brings me back to my question to Bill: do you judge Judaism and Jews vis a vis pediophilia the same as you judge Islam and Muslims?

You have GOT to be kidding. Is this where you were going with all that?

All this is just fluff. It is an attempt to explain away the fact that Mohammed actually really incontrovertibly have sex with a 9 year old. He was a pedophile just like Brian David Mitchell. Brian David Mitchell was a smart and cleaver self-proclaimed messenger of God too.

Why do you try to find an excuse for the inexcusable? Why do you dig into other religions and find that because other cultures have marriages of children but were not expected to consummate that you can twist this to imply that this was the case with Mohammed.

Why do you do this?

Please explain.

 

[A'isha]

Hospital Emergency room workers in Iran would not think it is the same sort of thing in their Islamic Republic nor would human rights activists.

What about hospital emergency room workers in Nicaragua, where just under 50% of girls become child brides, and yet the Muslim population of the country is effectively zero (1,200 to 1,500)? Or hospital emergency room workers in Mozambique, where 56% of all girls in the entire nation become child brides, while the Muslim population of the country is just barely over 15%?

 

[Craig B]

Hospital Emergency room workers in Iran would not think it is the same sort of thing in their Islamic Republic nor would human rights activists.

Glad you're back, Bill. I'm not sure what you're getting at here; but don't worry because now's your chance to comment on the discussion ANTPogo and I have been engaged in about references in the Talmud, and other authoritative Jewish texts, to sex and marriageable age.

As I said before: over to you, Bill!

 

[A'isha]

All this is just fluff. It is an attempt to explain away the fact that Mohammed actually really incontrovertibly have sex with a 9 year old.

You have a pretty funny definition of "incontrovertibly".

Why do you try to find an excuse for the inexcusable? Why do you dig into other religions and find that because other cultures have marriages of children but were not expected to consummate

Ooops, wrong. They were indeed expected to consummate. Hence "painful intercourse" being one of the criteria indicating that a girl had not reached her majority yet, as well as that whole sidebar about a boy younger than nine who consummated a particular kind of marriage could still have that marriage effectively annulled if an older male also consummated with the same woman.

that you can twist this to imply that this was the case with Mohammed.

It might or might not have been the case with Muhammad, depending on which Muslim sect/subsect/individual adherent you ask.

Why do you do this?

Please explain.

Why do you excuse it in Judaism and among Jews in history? Why are you so quick to let Judaic rules on marriage to twelve year olds and (apparently) actual sex with three year olds slide right by, while Islamic rules on marriage to nine year olds damn the entire religion and all who adhere to it with the brush of "pedophile"?

EDIT: Let's be clear - I don't blame adherents of either Islam or Judaism who don't believe in and/or don't engage in the practice of marrying girls as young as their respective religious laws may permit, nor do I blame either religion as a whole. My question to you is why does Judaism get this pass from you, while Islam does not, considering what each religion can be said to "teach".

 

[Craig B]

Why do you try to find an excuse for the inexcusable? Why do you dig into other religions and find that because other cultures have marriages of children but were not expected to consummate that you can twist this to imply that this was the case with Mohammed. Please explain.

Sorry, our last posts crossed. Bill, what does "coition", in the expression "marriage by coition" mean? That's what it says in the Talmud. We can go on from there.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I don't know, Craig. Mohammed had sex with a 9 year old. Are you defending this practice?

mermi tv?
what next? WND?

no WMD. Is that what you meant to type?

Is Mermi TV hate speech?
Is it part of a conspiracy? If you do not like the news that your fantasy world is fake, you blame the messenger and not the message?

So what are you saying, it is like The Onion where it is all made in a studio? It looks real to me.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2545.htm
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2679.htm
http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/2679.htm
http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/2545.htm

 

[Bill Thompson]

Why do you excuse it in Judaism and among Jews in history?

I don't know. I don't care. It does not make any difference.

Mohammed had sex with a 9 year old. He was a power hungry scam artist just like Joesph Smith.

Now you are inventing some accusations? Is this part of your two-wrongs-make-a right nonsense? I know just about as much of Jewish stuff you are talking about as I would know about bacteria on Alpha Centauri. It has just about as much to do wht the fact that Mohammed had sex with a 9 year old. He was a power hungry scam artist just like Joesph Smith.

Why are you defending it? Just lay your cards out on the table and fess up.

 

[A'isha]

You're trying really, really hard not to answer our questions regarding Jewish religious law and what you think that implies about both Judaism as a whole and Jews as individual believers.

 

[A'isha]

I don't know. I don't care. It does not make any difference.'

Ah, you only care when Muslims do it?

Mohammed had sex with a 9 year old.

While many Muslims think he did, a lot of others don't think he did, and we'll never actually know for sure.

He was a power hungry scam artist just like Joesph Smith.

Whatever Muhammad's flaws and virtues, he was not comparable in any way to Joseph Smith.

Now you are inventing something accusations?

What am I inventing?

Is this part of your two-wrongs-make-a right nonsense?

No, it's part of my "If X is wrong and even vile when Y does it, why is X also not wrong and vile when Z does it?" question.

Which you still refuse to answer.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Glad you're back, Bill. I'm not sure what you're getting at here; but don't worry because now's your chance to comment on the discussion ANTPogo and I have been engaged in about references in the Talmud, and other authoritative Jewish texts, to sex and marriageable age.

As I said before: over to you, Bill!

You know, in ancient America they had this practice of killing virgins to make the crops grow. That was phased out. Anyway, that has just about as much to do with this Talmud Jewish stuff. So does what happened in the 1400's.

over to you, craig.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Ah, you only care when Muslims do it?

What the hell are you TALKING about?

You DON'T care when Muslims do it?

There is probabay a girl in Iran or northern Egypt right now having this happen to her.