Is GM finished?

[balrog666]

I read an interesting idea earlier.

The current market value of GM is about $3 billion, so why doesn't the UAW just buy the company and run it any way they want to themselves?

 

[Furcifer]

[qimg]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3021/3045414493_892544c463.jpg?v=0[/qimg]

It's in the way you dress. The way you boogie down. The way you sign your unemployment check. You're a man who likes to do things your own way. And on those special odd-numbered Saturdays when driving is permitted, you want it in your car. It's that special feeling of a zero-emissions wind at your back and a road ahead meandering with possibilities. The kind of feeling you get behind the wheel of the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition from Congressional Motors.

All new for 2012, the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition is the mandatory American car so advanced it took $100 billion and an entire Congress to design it. We started with same reliable 7-way hybrid ethanol-biodeisel-electric-clean coal-wind-solar-pedal power plant behind the base model Pelosi, but packed it with extra oomph and the sassy styling pizazz that tells the world that 1974 Detroit is back again -- with a vengeance.

We've subsidized the features you want and taxed away the rest. With its advanced Al Gore-designed V-3 under the hood pumping out 22.5 thumping, carbon-neutral ponies of Detroit muscle, you'll never be late for the Disco or the Day Labor Shelter. Engage the pedal drive or strap on the optional jumbo mizzenmast, and the GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition easily exceeds 2016 CAFE mileage standards. At an estimated 268 MPG, that's a savings of nearly $1800 per week in fuel cost over the 2011 Pelosi.

More at: The Congressional Motors Lemon

Ugh, I'm glad the prospect of 2.5 million unemployed and the collapse of the global economy hasn't phased some of us.

 

[balrog666]

The global economy will plod on with or without GM and Chrysler.

But Chapter 11 won't mean the collapse of the Big, Dumb 3 2 or the loss of any productive jobs.

 

[Toke]

If there is a need for cars, someone will fill it.

Downside is that not making any in the us will make the us defecit even worse.
That could hurt the rest of the world economicaly.

Plus side is that the us will run out of money for imperial warfare.

 

[Furcifer]

If there is a need for cars, someone will fill it.

Downside is that not making any in the us will make the us defecit even worse.
That could hurt the rest of the world economicaly.

Plus side is that the us will run out of money for imperial warfare.

Scary thought. It's not too far fetched to envision a scenario where the idled car plants are converted over to make tanks and missiles.

Thankfully, I'm under the impression that's not Obama's idea of "Change"

 

[Furcifer]

The global economy will plod on with or without GM and Chrysler.

But Chapter 11 won't mean the collapse of the Big, Dumb 3 2 or the loss of any productive jobs.

Obviously it will, just not at the same rate as it would if they didn't fail.

You're intelligent enough to realize there is no way they can be allowed to fail. Unless the plan they come up with is taking the $20 Billion to Vegas and putting it all on red it's going through.

No loss of productive jobs? I retract my earlier statement. Yur not.

 

[Just thinking]

Perhaps we need a good definition for the word "Fail" ... as in too big to fail. A total restructuring and/or regrouping under a form of bankruptcy does not mean total failure, yet some no doubt think it does.

 

[davefoc]

I read an interesting idea earlier.

The current market value of GM is about $3 billion, so why doesn't the UAW just buy the company and run it any way they want to themselves?

I almost posted a very similar idea.

One of the things that would help is a sense of reality about all this. The UAW essentially owns General Motors right now. The executives seem to have given the company away in return for the opportunity to sit and skim their massive salaries out of what remained of GM's capital.

So, to heck with 3 billion dollars, the union is in control of GM's future and its assets right now, they just need to let the existing share holders know this and they ought to get the remnants of GM for considerably less than 3 billion.

 

[Furcifer]

I almost posted a very similar idea.

One of the things that would help is a sense of reality about all this. The UAW essentially owns General Motors right now. The executives seem to have given the company away in return for the opportunity to sit and skim their massive salaries out of what remained of GM's capital.

So, to heck with 3 billion dollars, the union is in control of GM's future and its assets right now, they just need to let the existing share holders know this and they ought to get the remnants of GM for considerably less than 3 billion.

Why would the Union do that? It certainly presents a conflict of interest. Not to mention they are aware that its the governments responsibility, not theirs, to invest in the industry.

Even if you don't believe Jim Press, the Japanese and the Europeans have heavily subsidized their automakers in the past and continue to do so. Heck, even the US government granted Foreign automakers special status in several states. You don't think this amounts to a subsidy? I can't believe the number of people in this thread that remain ignorant to this fact then chirp "Free Market".

 

[The Man]

Well I hope at least the Saturn division is not finished, or some company buys it. My 3 year 36,000 mile warranty on my 2006 (delivered November 17th 2005) Ion 3 is just up (by year). My in dash 6 CD player is acting up, sometimes the buttons do not work but the volume and tuning knobs still do, sometimes they do not work either. I am going for the 30,000 mile service Friday and have explained the stereo problem. What I have been told is that since it is only a couple of weeks out of warranty, by date, they can “work with me” on a replacement. I am unsure of the implications of that statement and have been a loyal (2 cars and 13 years) customer. I will relate my experience and their resolution.


ETA: Luckily I was able to extract my six CDs from the player the other day, also my friend has worked in the GM parts division most of his career, I will ask him of his inclinations. Although only anecdotal accounts, as none of us are on the GM board, it is at least some input.

 

[balrog666]

An $8 billion bailout for Chrysler to get through the next 30 days?
A $4 billion bailout for GM to get through 30 days?
How much for the entire 2009 year for both of them? $40 billion? $60 billion?

Ford seems somewhat reasonable by comparison but I see no UAW concessions there. So give it to them and see what happens.

 

[The Man]

Hell, the CEOs are now saying that they will take the Iacocca ‘in trouble’ salary of 1 dollar (doesn’t say what other compensations from the board are though) and might drive to the next congressional meeting in hybrids (if only they had learned from their mistakes before).

 

[Furcifer]

Well I hope at least the Saturn division is not finished, or some company buys it.

I didn't see the breakdown for Saturn sales in November, but last I heard Saturn was the least affected division in GM. I never owned one, but people seem to like their Saturn dealer better than their car?

 

[davefoc]

Why would the Union do that?

The union wouldn't unless they were forced to. It might be a good idea to force them. They own GM, let them do what they will with it.

It certainly presents a conflict of interest.

They have been very successful at doing something that has destroyed Detroit which is certainly not in the interest of all the GM workers who have and will lose their jobs. Unions have a conflict of interest all the time. Putting them in charge of something they own might be one of the few times that they don't have a conflict of interest.

Not to mention they are aware that its the governments responsibility, not theirs, to invest in the industry.

That seems like a philosophical issue. Why is it the government's responsibility to do anything. There is at least a plausible argument to be made that things will be considerably better off if the government does nothing.

1. Ford immediately looks a lot better.
2. The other car companies that manufacture stuff in the US all of a sudden look a lot better.
3. The UAW is put in a position of dealing with reality instead of figuring out how best to bribe a bunch of congressman to maintain an absurd status quo.
4. GM is not instantly worthless. It might survive a chapter 11. If it doesn't, its pieces certainly aren't worthless. They will be purchased by people who will use them to make stuff with them and people will have jobs.

FWIW, if I were in charge I would probably loan the car companies some money, but only after gut wrenching concessions on their part. Executives that take bonuses out of failing companies would be gone before they had a chance to turn out the lights behind them.

 

[Drewbot]

The Union has made concessions which will take effect in 2010. I would guess that the Union would offer to make those changes start in 2009. The changes include- $14.00/hour starting wages, and the Health care package being run by the UAW instead of paid for by the Big 3. Right there is 2Billion/quarter Each of the Automotives will be saving.

 

[Furcifer]

They have been very successful at doing something that has destroyed Detroit which is certainly not in the interest of all the GM workers who have and will lose their jobs. Unions have a conflict of interest all the time. Putting them in charge of something they own might be one of the few times that they don't have a conflict of interest.

That seems like a philosophical issue. Why is it the government's responsibility to do anything. There is at least a plausible argument to be made that things will be considerably better off if the government does nothing.

1. Ford immediately looks a lot better.
2. The other car companies that manufacture stuff in the US all of a sudden look a lot better.
3. The UAW is put in a position of dealing with reality instead of figuring out how best to bribe a bunch of congressman to maintain an absurd status quo.
4. GM is not instantly worthless. It might survive a chapter 11. If it doesn't, its pieces certainly aren't worthless. They will be purchased by people who will use them to make stuff with them and people will have jobs.

FWIW, if I were in charge I would probably loan the car companies some money, but only after gut wrenching concessions on their part. Executives that take bonuses out of failing companies would be gone before they had a chance to turn out the lights behind them.

Why is it that when the shareholders and making money hand over fist no one is talking about "concessions" to be made, giving something back to the average joe busting his back on the line? They're just supposed to be happy with the contract they negotiated. As soon as the shareholders lose a few bucks people start screaming "concessions" to the UAW. Where did the profits go? I'll tell you where, out of the country and hoarded by these Congressman's cronies by way of foreign cars, trips and properties, or super huge bank accounts. Currently 1% of the population holds 40% of the World's wealth, the gap between the rich and poor has grown over the last decade. Not all, but alot of this transfer of wealth can be indirectly attributed to the automotive industry, by way of oil and steel.

What other body has fought to redistribute this wealth back to the average Joe working the line? Not only directly to its members, but indirectly to the 1 in 10 Americans who rely on this industry? The UAW. And not by force mind you, but by negotiating a fair contract. I can't think of any other body that has done this, but then again I'm entrenched, being so close to Detroit.

For every 1 alleged bribe by the UAW, there's at least 1 on the other side doing the same. At least 1, if not more. But then do you really want to go there? Government is dirty, always has been always will. So is the Union. On a plus side, I truly believe Obama's Government will be better. Not perfect, but better.

Why is it the Government's responsibility to do anything? Please, I can't believe members of this forum falling prey to this "Free Market" woo. All of the World's Governments have a vested interest in protecting their industries. Why else would there be a WTO? From grants, subsidies, tax breaks to inflating or deflating their currencies, all of them have and continue to protect their economies by protecting their industries.

Why would you allow one of your biggest industries to fail while blindly following this "Free Market" religion that doesn't exist? Can't you see the problem this ideal is causing, a monopoly on the World's currency? Are you really ignorant of the money the Japanese, Chinese and Europeans have pumped into this industry in the past?

Or is this just sour grapes you don't make Union wages and your first car was a Chevette?

 

[balrog666]

How much the shareholders make is simply none of your business. If GM went private like Chrysler, you wouldn't have the foggiest idea how much they have made or lost nor would it make the slightest difference to the rate of pay of the workers they hired.

Not fair? Ya gotta be kiddin' me!

Redistribution - paying people who aren't even working? Ya gotta be kiddin' me!

Everybody is corrupt, so that makes corruption okay? Ya gotta be kiddin' me!

The WTO is intended to protect domestic industries? Ya gotta be kiddin' me!

 

[Furcifer]

How much the shareholders make is simply none of your business. If GM went private like Chrysler, you wouldn't have the foggiest idea how much they have made or lost nor would it make the slightest difference to the rate of pay of the workers they hired.!

But what the average UAW member does is. Double Standard

Redistribution - paying people who aren't even working? Ya gotta be kiddin' me!

Guaranteeing you get a paycheck every week so you can pay your bills and feed your family is a joke? You've no idea what a volatile market the automotive industry is. Unless you know the fear of the term "Days of Orders" you don't know this industry.

Everybody is corrupt, so that makes corruption okay? Ya gotta be kiddin' me!

Absolutely not. But your plan to "blog" it away isn't catching on. I seriously can't point a finger at which is worse. If were talking corruption at the richest levels, well I'm going GOVERNMENT. You give me a list of the top ten Union bad guys involved in shady undertaking, I'll give you mine from the Government.

The WTO is intended to protect domestic industries? Ya gotta be kiddin' me!

Read for comprehension. The WTO basically tries to keep track of the Governments "protecting" their industries. If Governments weren't already involved there would be no WTO, nor any real need for one. Never said that.

Worst load of straw men I've ever seen presented. Shame on you.

 

[balrog666]

But what the average UAW member does is. Double Standard

Utter nonsense.

It's a simple statement of fact in a public corporation - it's required to be disclosed. So we know how much the employees cost, how much the management team got paid, and how much the shareholders got paid in dividends.

But it is not the same with a private company like Chrysler - they can release whatever information they want or none at all. Or they can lie all they want in press releases. And, as a matter of law, you, as an employee have no legal right to know anything about it. And neither does the UAW.

Guaranteeing you get a paycheck every week so you can pay your bills and feed your family is a joke? You've no idea what a volatile market the automotive industry is. Unless you know the fear of the term "Days of Orders" you don't know this industry.

Paying people to sit in a Job Bank and play with themselves all day is productive to no one but a parasite willing to do that.

Absolutely not. But your plan to "blog" it away isn't catching on. I seriously can't point a finger at which is worse. If were talking corruption at the richest levels, well I'm going GOVERNMENT. You give me a list of the top ten Union bad guys involved in shady undertaking, I'll give you mine from the Government.

The UAW is a problem for all UAW members. Shining a light on other organizations (better or worse) solves nothing for you.

Read for comprehension. The WTO basically tries to keep track of the Governments "protecting" their industries. If Governments weren't already involved there would be no WTO, nor any real need for one. Never said that.

The purpose of the WTO is to end government subsidies and protection of domestic industries in international trade.

Worst load of straw men I've ever seen presented. Shame on you.

Yes, it is true that that is exactly how I would have described your post. Lucky guess.

.

 

[Furcifer]

And, as a matter of law, you, as an employee have no legal right to know anything about it. And neither does the UAW.

As a matter of law? "Nothing to see here people, move along" Come on, you wanna berate a union member for making $25/hr and disregard what the shareholders are makng off his blood and sweat. How very elitist. I'm going to disregard what I know cuz, legally I'm not supposed to know? It's public knowledge.

Paying people to sit in a Job Bank and play with themselves all day is productive to no one but a parasite willing to do that.

You realize this mentality could be applied to retirees the elderly or infants. Let's forget what they represent and judge them on what they do? I'm not sure where you're going with this.

The UAW is a problem for all UAW members. Shining a light on other organizations (better or worse) solves nothing for you.

Not making an educated evaluation of the situation solves nothing for you. If you're going to discredit and organization simply becaue of prior improprieties then you have to start with the government and work your way down.

The purpose of the WTO is to end government subsidies and protection of domestic industries in international trade.

then

The WTO is intended to protect domestic industries? Ya gotta be kiddin' me!

LMFAO, are you confused or what?