Is GM finished?

[Toke]

Then there is no problem with letting them fall.
If people still need cars they will be produced somewere, perhaps in the us on foreing factories.

 

[Furcifer]

Perhaps it is. But, if so, it's too little, too late..

If we choose it to be, maybe yes. Or maybe we realize the implications of not allowing what is already in the works to fruitition, realize what Wall Street has done to the economy and the industry and "loan" them directly some of the money the FatCats have already been alotted, therby saving a vital US and NA industry. The industry pays back the money (like Chrysler did in the early 80's) and we all make a few bucks in the process.

Or fold it like a house of cards and divert money to Japan to they can reap the benefits of America's hard work and effort.

No, the problem is that the Big Dumb 3's management hasn't planned for even the most obvious changes in worker demographics, market changes, or the results of decades of customer dissatisfaction..

Wow, can you see me from that high up on your horse?

No one wanted to acknowledge the problem the Baby Boomers would create when they all retired. Again, we reaped the benefits of their hard work and sheer numbers for the last 40 some years, time for them to pay back to the system. The younger generation is going to get their dues if we have to take it or they offer it willingly.

Ok, that's me kidding a bit, but I think you get my point. There's something to be said about a democratic society and the Baby Boomer generation being partly to blame for this. They stopped taking acid, got jobs and wanted everything. Now we are beginning to see that's not feasible.

As to the market changing, we've come to the point where the market changes fater than these companies can react. I'm not prepared to turn it (the industry) over to the Japanese and start claiming my father as a dependant on my taxes.

As far as dissatisfaction? Well you ain't heard nothin until you heard everyone bitchin' about how they've got no job, their kids have got no job, and they can't buy nothing but foreign cars, and there's no leg room...

Are you suggesting that only now has the Big Dumb 3's management failed?.

We failed as a society when we allowed others into a vital market, got caught up in the hype, failed to recongnize the importance of keeping it "local" and doomed our economy.

I've owned or driven Big Dumb 3 vehicles every year in the last 50. I've known and dealt with people in the Big Dumb 3 engineering departments and a few UAW line workers as well as suppliers. I'm not relying on any so-called myths for my opinions.

Don't just say this, give some examples for us to refute. Maybe you made stupid decisions, maybe you got a lemon, maybe you're just one of those people that goes to a restaurant and complains about a hair in your soup so you can get it comp'd

Again you seem to think the last 5 or ten years is the entire relevant history. .

Depends, are we taking alternative fuel vehicles or what? GM has made good cars in the last 50 years, and bad ones. They haven't really made a bad hybrid either...

And yet CAFE has been around for 30+ years and every other competitor to the Big Dumb 3 has managed to deal with it successfully ....

If I opened up a car company today, I could pay everyone $12/hr have no retired employees and make a car that got 2 km/gallon, am I really that much more savy of a CEO than the ones at the Big 3? Legislation has meant more obsticles for the Big 3 than their competitors have had. That's all I'm saying.

Most of what? Wall street isn't bringing down the Dumb 3 although will make it much more difficult and/or expensive for them to reorganize.
.

Most of the problem. They did. They lent money to foolish people who's eyes were bigger than their pocket books. The whole automotive industry based on a ficticious need for a new fancy car every three years, and remaining in debt, constantly paying off a vehicle.

GM is insolvent; GM can't pay it's bills; GM has no more credit; so GM has failed. That's how that works..

And you say it's happened over 50 years? Things move faster than that. You want to stretch this out so you can incorporate everything into the equation to suit your own agenda. Things have fluctuated over the last 50 years, GM was profitable more recently.

But what of the CEO testimony of the Big Dumb 3's CEO's? What did you think about the fact that don't have any idea of how much money they actually need? Or that they have no plan to do anything with it other than continue in the same old failed business as usual mode until they are broke again?

Or that "We just cannot be confident that we will be able to successfully emerge from bankruptcy," even assuming they shed their overwhelming debt and labor liabilities (as stated by Nardelli)? Does this sound like a viable business model to you?

.

This is actually goes to what I'm saying. Congress wants them to look into a crystal ball and tell them exactly what they will need. I can say for certain what they need changes as often as the sign at your local Exxon station.

 

[Furcifer]

BTW, don't take all that as some strident rant - it's just the way I see it.

I can see the possibility of buying another Big Dumb 3 vehicle sometime in the future. But, if they choose not to deal directly with their problems and if they expect us to be happy about bailing out their incompetent management team and the UAW, they can just go pound sand.

I don't think it's a strident rant. I understand where you're coming from and argue tongue in cheek.

When both I and my father worked at Chrysler there wasn't a single product I could see myself buying. I wasn't in the market for a minivan and the one Dodge Shadow I owned was the BIGGEST pile of crap every produced. Ever. You wanna debate that, let's rock! The 2.5l in them sounded like it was going to fly apart at any minute, the fit/finish was the worst as was the general look of the vehicle. But, if I needed an 8 passenger vehicle, the Dodge Van couldn't be beat. I owned one with a slant 6 in it that, while underpowered, got great gas mileage and started every time. Then they started making the 300, a nice looking vehicle, very shrp. I was working at the truck plant on 8 mile when they announced the HEMI would be available in the 1500. Sweet truck, you can take your Tundra and... These days I've considered buying a turbo car. While the EVO is nice, I'm still considering the Caliber SRT4. Rated at what? 280 Hp (hehe, sure), these things rock. I like the WRX sti, alot, but as someone with a vested interest in the NA economy, I'll sacrifice with a Caliber. See you on the streets

 

[Furcifer]

To tell you the truth I never even thought to question it and it even understates the case in that not only do the bulk of people require oil based fuels to get to work but the huge bulk of US transportation is highly dependent on it also.

So I'm not quite sure what part of what I said was a myth. By bulk I meant majority of workers. Do less than 50% of workers rely on methods of getting to work that don't require oil based fuels?

Or maybe your point was that in an emergency people can easily switch over to other methodologies for getting to work that require drastically less fuel?

I'm sorry, I'm just not sure what you felt that I should look up to demonstrate that I was perpetuating a myth.

ETA: Ah, I think the myth you felt I was perpetuating was that the source of US oil was not principally from unstable areas of the world. I guess that depends on the definition of unstable. Without looking it up I realize that the US gets a lot of oil from Canada and Mexico. It might also get significant amounts of oil from Russia. Arguably not unstable parts of the world.

However, the point still stands I think in that the percentage of US oil supplied from foreign suppliers has increased significantly and even if the US was not getting any oil from the Mideast if the Mideast sources dry up there is still a huge problem for the US in that its foreign supply of oil will be diverted significantly to Europe and possibly Asia as the Mideast sources are shutdown.

yeah, that's what I meant dave. most of the oil comes from Canada, not exactly a volatile market. at one point I was under the assumption that most of the gasoline came from the middle east. when i found out this wasn't the case i felt a little cheated as i had supported this myth in the past. it was enlightening when i found out (as a Canadian )

I'm not sure if it has increased? I'll do a search and find out. I thought it was decreasing? Anyways, I'm not sure if an interruption is that big a deal, or as big a deal as people make out. there are reserves and there are other suppliers, not to mention un-tapped resources in the US and NA.

 

[AWPrime]

We failed as a society when we allowed others into a vital market, got caught up in the hype, failed to recongnize the importance of keeping it "local" and doomed our economy.

Do you really believe that?

 

[Furcifer]

Do you really believe that?

I hope not. I hope I'm mistaken. I hope people will realize the contribution this industry and they UAW have made to our standard of living. I hope they realize the labour laws we all take for granted now can be attributed to the people in this industry who fought and paid for them long ago.

 

[AWPrime]

That as almost 100 years ago.....

 

[Furcifer]

That as almost 100 years ago.....

These http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/536641/2222909 are the same standards the UAW fought for and got its employees almost 100 years ago. Is that what you mean?

 

[balrog666]

I hope not. I hope I'm mistaken. I hope people will realize the contribution this industry and they UAW have made to our standard of living. I hope they realize the labour laws we all take for granted now can be attributed to the people in this industry who fought and paid for them long ago.

I have to ask - how old are you?

 

[Furcifer]

I have to ask - how old are you?

I'm not sure how this is relevant? If this is because I seem a little preachy in the last few posts I apologize. I just see a lot of Union bashing here like they did something wrong.

 

[AWPrime]

These http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/536641/2222909 are the same standards the UAW fought for and got its employees almost 100 years ago. Is that what you mean?

Almost, but I was more think about Fords fair wage that allowed his workers to buy the product.

 

[YoPopa]

I'm not sure how this is relevant? If this is because I seem a little preachy in the last few posts I apologize. I just see a lot of Union bashing here like they did something wrong.

If you are trying to say that unions have done nothing wrong then that is an incredibly naive position to take.

Lawyers & unions have done a lot of good, and most of us need one from time to time, but if you ever get to the point where you can't fire your lawyer you are in deep doo-doo.

 

[balrog666]

I'm not sure how this is relevant? If this is because I seem a little preachy in the last few posts I apologize. I just see a lot of Union bashing here like they did something wrong.

It's not relevant - I was just curious. They say for each person history begins the day they were born. I would have guessed your age at about 30.


Yes, union bashing is very popular, especially for those with long memories.

 

[Furcifer]

It's not relevant - I was just curious. They say for each person history begins the day they were born. I would have guessed your age at about 30.


Yes, union bashing is very popular, especially for those with long memories.

I guess my response is "old enough that the union never really did anything for my dad when he worked at the big 3"

The union in recent history has become antiquated. Worker rights and protection from unfair practises have almost all but vanished in this country. But when they go to people, and this really is what the bailout amounts to, and ask for some help I think we have a limited obligation to do so. Limited to the extent that all parties need to face up for what they've done to the industry and make "consessions" in attempts to fix it.

34

 

[balrog666]

I guess my response is "old enough that the union never really did anything for my dad when he worked at the big 3"

The union in recent history has become antiquated. Worker rights and protection from unfair practises have almost all but vanished in this country. But when they go to people, and this really is what the bailout amounts to, and ask for some help I think we have a limited obligation to do so. Limited to the extent that all parties need to face up for what they've done to the industry and make "consessions" in attempts to fix it.

34

Yes, exactly. Unions these days are really just a means to extort above-market-level pay and benefits from employers and to keep the worst and least productive employees employed (see any teachers union). Of course, the use and misuse (and political abuse) of union funds by union "leaders" is another reason for their existence.

And I would agree to some degree. But GM management in particular has been notorious for shirking the big decisions that are their direct responsibility. If forcing them into bankruptcy produces new management, all the better.

And if Daimler couldn't turn around the attitudes at Chrysler, why would any other car company want to touch them? Except GM, of course, to worsen the potential problems associated with not bailing them out.

.


.

 

[Almo]

The union in recent history has become antiquated. Worker rights and protection from unfair practises have almost all but vanished in this country.

How recent? As recently as the 80's, my uncle was against unions, but he lived in Wisconsin. When he moved to Texas and lost his job because he complained about safety in a non-union factory, he changed his mind.

 

[Furcifer]

Yes, exactly. Unions these days are really just a means to extort above-market-level pay and benefits from employers and to keep the worst and least productive employees employed (see any teachers union). Of course, the use and misuse (and political abuse) of union funds by union "leaders" is another reason for their existence.

And I would agree to some degree. But GM management in particular has been notorious for shirking the big decisions that are their direct responsibility. If forcing them into bankruptcy produces new management, all the better.

And if Daimler couldn't turn around the attitudes at Chrysler, why would any other car company want to touch them? Except GM, of course, to worsen the potential problems associated with not bailing them out.

.


.

I kinda see this as a chance to break the Union in a fair way. Let's take a long hard look at whats fair and competative. The Unions biggest playing card was obscene profits made by the shareholders, now that they are losing money there's no more "Robin Hood" effect.

Ugh, i hate to say this but it's "Time for change"

 

[Furcifer]

How recent? As recently as the 80's, my uncle was against unions, but he lived in Wisconsin. When he moved to Texas and lost his job because he complained about safety in a non-union factory, he changed his mind.

Unreal. There's very specific laws protection people like your uncle from this (in the States and Canada). Someone is not doing their job if this was allowed to happen. I know I'm safe in saying this cannot happen in an automotive plant. I guess I'm speaking more to the UAW and CAW than other Unions. In a very real sense they've put themselves out of work in this area by doing too good a job. I gues as a established industry the automotive have gone through their growning pains and is no longer in need of wet nurse we call the UAW.

I should note that i experiencd a situation in Vancouver where Unions would have helped dramatically. The Carpenter's Union is not enough of a presence on many work sites out there. As the industry grows at alarming rates, young and unskilled workers are getting hurt on job sites because they either don't speak enough English or are unaware of their right to refuse unsafe work. The legislation is there but their is ignorance of it.

 

[balrog666]

It's in the way you dress. The way you boogie down. The way you sign your unemployment check. You're a man who likes to do things your own way. And on those special odd-numbered Saturdays when driving is permitted, you want it in your car. It's that special feeling of a zero-emissions wind at your back and a road ahead meandering with possibilities. The kind of feeling you get behind the wheel of the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition from Congressional Motors.

All new for 2012, the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition is the mandatory American car so advanced it took $100 billion and an entire Congress to design it. We started with same reliable 7-way hybrid ethanol-biodeisel-electric-clean coal-wind-solar-pedal power plant behind the base model Pelosi, but packed it with extra oomph and the sassy styling pizazz that tells the world that 1974 Detroit is back again -- with a vengeance.

We've subsidized the features you want and taxed away the rest. With its advanced Al Gore-designed V-3 under the hood pumping out 22.5 thumping, carbon-neutral ponies of Detroit muscle, you'll never be late for the Disco or the Day Labor Shelter. Engage the pedal drive or strap on the optional jumbo mizzenmast, and the GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition easily exceeds 2016 CAFE mileage standards. At an estimated 268 MPG, that's a savings of nearly $1800 per week in fuel cost over the 2011 Pelosi.

More at: The Congressional Motors Lemon

 

[Roadtoad]

So, what's that thing gonna cost out the door?

You know, seriously, if GM's board doesn't give a rat's ass if their employees go broke, if they all lose their jobs, why the hell should we?