Is ESP More Probable Than Advanced Alien Life?

Fudbucker

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This came up in another thread, so rather than derail it, I'll start a new thread. I'm going to argue that the existence of both is equally probable.

First, what is the probability of advanced alien life existing (by advanced I mean the same tech level as we are (or higher))? I would argue that, at best, it is simply unknown, for three reasons:

1. The probability of abiogenesis occurring anywhere other than Earth is unknown.
2. The "narrowness" of the "goldilocks zone" is unknown.
What I mean by (2) is we don't know how many things have to fall into place just right for life to be even possible. Perhaps the ratio of the size of the moon to the planet has to be within a few hundreths of a decimal. Perhaps the planet has to be tilted just right, and the position and size of the closest gas giant can only vary by a small amount. In other words, there could be a dozen things that can't vary by more than 1%, and .01 to the 12th power is pretty close to the number of planets in the universe.
3. The probability of intelligent life arising on planets that have primitive life is unknown.

Without these three probabilities, the Drake equation can't be used, and the Drake equation is necessary for figuring out the probability of alien life.

There is also some disconfirming evidence that advanced alien life exists:
1. SETI's continued silence
2. The lack of large-scale stellar or galaxy based projects.
3. The lack of self-replicating probes

While I don't think that this is strong disconfirming evidence, it does exist.

So, the best we can say about advanced alien life is that it's possible.

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Is ESP possible? Yes. The default position is that a thing is possible until it's been proven impossible. A tea cup floating around Jupiter is possible (though very very unlikely).

There has been some evidence of ESP abilities, but not much. Some laboratory results have been kind of interesting (the PEAR project has it's adherents), and there are, of course, anecdotal accounts, but I would assign as much value to this evidence as I would assign as much value to SETI's-continued-silence as evidence aliens don't exist: it's hardly evidence at all.

Is there disconfirming evidence of ESP? On the face of it, a whole lot of it. Every test has come up short. However, there's a huge assumption going on there- that people who have ESP will sign up to be tested for it. For whatever reason, such people might not want to be tested. Since the disconfirming evidence (lack of laboratory results) relies on an assumption that can't be assigned a probability, we can't assume that lack of results in controlled tests is disconfirming evidence. It disconfirms the hypothesis that "people who have been tested have ESP", but it doesn't disconfirm the hypothesis that "people who avoid being tested have ESP". The possibility of such people existing is unknown, and if they avoid being tested, all the tests in the world won't disprove their existence.

It's like arguing that the lack of galaxy-size engineering projects is evidence that aliens don't exist. It's only evidence if we assume that aliens would engage in such projects. It's entirely possible they don't.

Now, what would the causal mechanism for ESP be? This, of course, is unknown. However, unknown doesn't mean impossible (or even unlikely). It's unknown whether other universes exist. It's unknown how abiogenesis occurred. It's unknown if white-holes exist, if other dimensions exist, or if the Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is correct.

Does ESP violate any laws of physics or biology? Again, this is unknown and also presupposes our knowledge of biology and physics is complete enough to rule it out. When 95% of what makes up the universe is a mystery, and we can't even agree on how consciousness arises, our science still has a long way to go. Faster-than-light travel would seemingly contradict some firmly established laws of physics, but that hasn't stopped NASA from funding warp-drive projects.

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TLDR version: At present time, there are simply too many unknowns to assign a probability to the existence of either ESP abilities OR advanced alien life. The existence of one is as equally likely as the existence of the other.

Also, the disconfirming evidence for either is too weak to count for much. The lack of a signal from SETI (or observations of self-replicating probes) is only disconfirming evidence if we assume advanced aliens would be beaming us a message, or would build such probes (or allow them to be revealed to us if they did build them).

Likewise, the lack of evidence from controlled testing of ESP abilities assumes people with such abilities would agree to be tested.

While there is a tremendous amount of anecdotal evidence for ESP, there is also a tremendous amount of anecdotal evidence for Big Foot, alien abductions, visitations by the Virgin Mary, etc. I don't think the side that argues that advanced alien life exists (or is probable) is going to cite reports of alien abductions, so it wouldn't be fair to me to appeal to reports of ESP phenomena*


*Although I would argue that if ESP phenomena were never reported, this would disconfirm the existence of ESP to a large degree, but that's not the case.
 
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I have a question.
Why is it now "Advanced Alien Life", when before it was merely "Life".
And exactly what qualifies as "Advanced" in this context?
 
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Is ESP possible? Yes. The default position is that a thing is possible until it's been proven impossible. A tea cup floating around Jupiter is possible (though very very unlikely).
...

That's not the null hypothesis, that's the 'I want to believe' hypothesis.
 
I'm not sure I agree that ESP should get a pass because "we don't know everything about biology." While the existence of extra-terrestrials is consistent with what we do know about how the universe works, ESP is inconsistent on a number of levels (biology being one, the inability to detect a transmission of energy is entirely separate).
 
What about using human metabolism to power a bluetooth transceiver, wiring it to the brain so that what it receives is experienced as a sensory stimulus of some kind, and so that what it transmits is determined by electrical signals associated with conscious thought?

Would two people equipped with such devices be able to learn how to communicate with each other that way?
 
This came up in another thread, so rather than derail it, I'll start a new thread. I'm going to argue that the existence of both is equally probable.

First, what is the probability of advanced alien life existing (by advanced I mean the same tech level as we are (or higher))? I would argue that, at best, it is simply unknown, for three reasons:

1. The probability of abiogenesis occurring anywhere other than Earth is unknown.
2. The "narrowness" of the "goldilocks zone" is unknown.
What I mean by (2) is we don't know how many things have to fall into place just right for life to be even possible. Perhaps the ratio of the size of the moon to the planet has to be within a few hundreths of a decimal. Perhaps the planet has to be tilted just right, and the position and size of the closest gas giant can only vary by a small amount. In other words, there could be a dozen things that can't vary by more than 1%, and .01 to the 12th power is pretty close to the number of planets in the universe.
3. The probability of intelligent life arising on planets that have primitive life is unknown.

Without these three probabilities, the Drake equation can't be used, and the Drake equation is necessary for figuring out the probability of alien life.

There is also some disconfirming evidence that advanced alien life exists:
1. SETI's continued silence
2. The lack of large-scale stellar or galaxy based projects.
3. The lack of self-replicating probes

While I don't think that this is strong disconfirming evidence, it does exist.

So, the best we can say about advanced alien life is that it's possible.

-------------

Is ESP possible? Yes. The default position is that a thing is possible until it's been proven impossible. A tea cup floating around Jupiter is possible (though very very unlikely).

There has been some evidence of ESP abilities, but not much. Some laboratory results have been kind of interesting (the PEAR project has it's adherents), and there are, of course, anecdotal accounts, but I would assign as much value to this evidence as I would assign as much value to SETI's-continued-silence as evidence aliens don't exist: it's hardly evidence at all.

Is there disconfirming evidence of ESP? On the face of it, a whole lot of it. Every test has come up short. However, there's a huge assumption going on there- that people who have ESP will sign up to be tested for it. For whatever reason, such people might not want to be tested. Since the disconfirming evidence (lack of laboratory results) relies on an assumption that can't be assigned a probability, we can't assume that lack of results in controlled tests is disconfirming evidence. It disconfirms the hypothesis that "people who have been tested have ESP", but it doesn't disconfirm the hypothesis that "people who avoid being tested have ESP". The possibility of such people existing is unknown, and if they avoid being tested, all the tests in the world won't disprove their existence.

It's like arguing that the lack of galaxy-size engineering projects is evidence that aliens don't exist. It's only evidence if we assume that aliens would engage in such projects. It's entirely possible they don't.

Now, what would the causal mechanism for ESP be? This, of course, is unknown. However, unknown doesn't mean impossible (or even unlikely). It's unknown whether other universes exist. It's unknown how abiogenesis occurred. It's unknown if white-holes exist, if other dimensions exist, or if the Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is correct.

Does ESP violate any laws of physics or biology? Again, this is unknown and also presupposes our knowledge of biology and physics is complete enough to rule it out. When 95% of what makes up the universe is a mystery, and we can't even agree on how consciousness arises, our science still has a long way to go. Faster-than-light travel would seemingly contradict some firmly established laws of physics, but that hasn't stopped NASA from funding warp-drive projects.

-------------

TLDR version: At present time, there are simply too many unknowns to assign a probability to the existence of either ESP abilities OR advanced alien life. The existence of one is as equally likely as the existence of the other.

Also, the disconfirming evidence for either is too weak to count for much. The lack of a signal from SETI (or observations of self-replicating probes) is only disconfirming evidence if we assume advanced aliens would be beaming us a message, or would build such probes (or allow them to be revealed to us if they did build them).

Likewise, the lack of evidence from controlled testing of ESP abilities assumes people with such abilities would agree to be tested.

While there is a tremendous amount of anecdotal evidence for ESP, there is also a tremendous amount of anecdotal evidence for Big Foot, alien abductions, visitations by the Virgin Mary, etc. I don't think the side that argues that advanced alien life exists (or is probable) is going to cite reports of alien abductions, so it wouldn't be fair to me to appeal to reports of ESP phenomena*


*Although I would argue that if ESP phenomena were never reported, this would disconfirm the existence of ESP to a large degree, but that's not the case.
Further disconfirming evidence of alien life may be the common ancestor on earth problem. There are more spatially seperated localities for life to begin in ideal conditions on earth than stars in the universe yet the one common ancestor suggests this may have happened only once.
 
Is ESP More Probable Than Advanced Alien Life?
Probably not. The human body has been pretty exhaustively dissected, examined, measured, recorded, etc. ESP doesn't really have any places to hide, if it exists. I would go further and say that whatever kind of communication ESP is supposed to be isn't actually well-defined in the first place. I would say absence of evidence for some novel, undefinable of manner of communication is evidence of absence. The only kind of ESP which will likely exist in the future is in the form of machines which read and stimulate brain activity directly.

The search for alien life, on the other hand, is nowhere near as exhaustive. We've only examined a handful of planets and moons among the 7 * 1022 stars in the observable universe, and many many more planets and moons. There are billions of years of history behind our present moment in time, and billions of years ahead of us. The universe is an unfathomably enormous space, existing across an extraordinary abyss of time. We know advanced life exists in at least our small part of the universe, it is plausible it exists in pockets all over the universe.

There's simply no comparison between the probabilities of ESP and advanced alien life. The law of large numbers makes the probability of advanced alien life nearly certain, while the probability of ESP seems all but impossible for the foreseeable future.
 
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On at least one planet in the entire universe, a multitude of life forms has been demonstrated to exist.
There is at least prior probability for life elsewhere in the universe.

ESP does not have that luxury.
 
I have a question.
Why is it now "Advanced Alien Life", when before it was merely "Life".
And exactly what qualifies as "Advanced" in this context?

Because I like the idea of talking about aliens, instead of pond scum.

It doesn't make a difference, though. The probability of the existence of any kind of alien life is unknown. Instead of three missing variables in the Drake equation, you would have two. It doesn't make it any more solvable.
 
No, the null hypothesis is that X is possible unless it's proven that it can't possibly exist. It is very, very hard to prove impossibility.

No, that is literally the opposite. The null hypothesis is simple. You make a claim, and the null hypothesis is "My claim is false." ESP is a claim. Its null hypothesis is "ESP does not exist."
 
I'm not sure I agree that ESP should get a pass because "we don't know everything about biology." While the existence of extra-terrestrials is consistent with what we do know about how the universe works, ESP is inconsistent on a number of levels (biology being one, the inability to detect a transmission of energy is entirely separate).

You're assuming that abiogenesis isn't a one-off occurrence. If it's only happened once in the universe, then the existence of aliens would not be consistent with what we know, because if we knew that abiogenesis has only happened once, then we would obviously conclude alien life doesn't exist. If we knew that alien life didn't exist, "the existence of extra-terrestrials" would not be consistent with what we know.

Also, how is ESP inconsistent with biology? And if it is, how do we know our biological models are correct? Our view of the universe was turned completely on its head just a very short time ago:

"In the early 1990's, one thing was fairly certain about the expansion of the Universe. It might have enough energy density to stop its expansion and recollapse, it might have so little energy density that it would never stop expanding, but gravity was certain to slow the expansion as time went on. Granted, the slowing had not been observed, but, theoretically, the Universe had to slow. The Universe is full of matter and the attractive force of gravity pulls all matter together. Then came 1998 and the Hubble Space Telescope (HST) observations of very distant supernovae that showed that, a long time ago, the Universe was actually expanding more slowly than it is today. So the expansion of the Universe has not been slowing due to gravity, as everyone thought, it has been accelerating. No one expected this, no one knew how to explain it. But something was causing it."

http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy/

The take-away from that is that the one thing we can be sure of is we really can't be sure of a lot of things. If we don't know what 95% of the universe is, are we in a good position to rule out much?
 
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The take-away from that is that the one thing we can be sure of is we really can't be sure of a lot of things. If we don't know what 95% of the universe is, are we in a good position to rule out much?

Ruling stuff in, even provisionally, does not help at all. Unless one wants to believe, of course.
 
Probably not. The human body has been pretty exhaustively dissected, examined, measured, recorded, etc. ESP doesn't really have any places to hide, if it exists. I would go further and say that whatever kind of communication ESP is supposed to be isn't actually well-defined in the first place. I would say absence of evidence for some novel, undefinable of manner of communication is evidence of absence. The only kind of ESP which will likely exist in the future is in the form of machines which read and stimulate brain activity directly.

The search for alien life, on the other hand, is nowhere near as exhaustive. We've only examined a handful of planets and moons among the 7 * 1022 stars in the observable universe, and many many more planets and moons. There are billions of years of history behind our present moment in time, and billions of years ahead of us. The universe is an unfathomably enormous space, existing across an extraordinary abyss of time. We know advanced life exists in at least our small part of the universe, it is plausible it exists in pockets all over the universe.

There's simply no comparison between the probabilities of ESP and advanced alien life. The law of large numbers makes the probability of advanced alien life nearly certain, while the probability of ESP seems all but impossible for the foreseeable future.

I would argue our position is more akin to Hooke examining his slides and concluding viruses don't exist because there's nowhere for them to hide. In other words, what we've observed so far shouldn't be taken to be an exhaustive catalog of everything there is.

Not only was there (seemingly) nowhere for dark energy and dark matter to hide 30 years ago, the concept that the vast majority of the universe consists of unknown energy and stuff would have gotten you laughed off the stage.

Is it possible a consciousness field permeates the universe? Is backwards causation possible? Communication between worlds if the MWI interpretation of QM is correct? Interaction between universes if multiple universes exist?
 
On at least one planet in the entire universe, a multitude of life forms has been demonstrated to exist.
There is at least prior probability for life elsewhere in the universe.

ESP does not have that luxury.

There's the possibility that life exists elsewhere. ESP is also possible. If you're claiming ESP is impossible, the burden of proof lies with you, just as if I were to claim alien life is impossible, the burden of proof is on me.
 
No, the null hypothesis is that X is possible unless it's proven that it can't possibly exist. It is very, very hard to prove impossibility.

Nope, the relevant null hypothesis is that something hasn't been proven to exist until proven to exist. Do we assume that pink unicorns are likely to exist unless we can prove that they are impossible?

So rather than discuss possible/impossible I'd rather discuss probabilities. We have one proof that life can exist in the Universe, on Earth, and no scientific reason that this would not be possible elsewhere. We have zero proof that ESP can exist, and no scientific reason to think that it might be possible anywhere. I therefore think the probability of extraterrestrial life is infinitely higher than that of ESP, just as one is infinity higher than zero. This does not mean that the probability of extraterrestrial life need be high per planet; there are a lot of stars and planets in the Universe.
 
There's the possibility that life exists elsewhere. ESP is also possible. If you're claiming ESP is impossible, the burden of proof lies with you, just as if I were to claim alien life is impossible, the burden of proof is on me.

Let me quickly show you what I actually did say:
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There is at least prior probability for life elsewhere in the universe.

ESP does not have that luxury.

There's no prior probability for ESP.
 
No, that is literally the opposite. The null hypothesis is simple. You make a claim, and the null hypothesis is "My claim is false." ESP is a claim. Its null hypothesis is "ESP does not exist."

LOL, no. Observe:

No, that is literally the opposite. The null hypothesis is simple. You make a claim, and the null hypothesis is "My claim is false." ESP is a claim Alien life is a claim. Its null hypothesis is "ESP alien life does not exist."
 

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