Is Democracy Overrated?

[Kimpatsu]

I don't chew gum at all, so why should I care? Explain it to me.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

I don't chew gum at all, so why should I care? Explain it to me.

Singapore is actually quite repressive socially. You can't import or chew gum. Public canings for petty vandalism. Things of that nature. I know all the democracies have their issues with freedom and social control, but Singapore I would hold up more as a paragon of social order, not of benevolance.

 

[Kimpatsu]

Singapore is actually quite repressive socially. You can't import or chew gum. Public canings for petty vandalism. Things of that nature. I know all the democracies have their issues with freedom and social control, but Singapore I would hold up more as a paragon of social order, not of benevolance.

I know that Singapre is repressive. The question I'm asking is, why should I care about Singaporean repression if I don't live there and have to suffer the repression personally? (Devil's advocate, you see.)

 

[Hal 2001]

I have had the same thought as you. Democracy will not lead to all the best choices, neither would any other kind of government, although other systems might lead to better choices. The idea and primary goal of democracy is not efficiency.

I have often played with the idea of having people take a basic test before elections (it could be about the candidates and there policies ;-) ). But it's a messy idea from the start who would decide the questions, who would decide the level to obtain.

And the basic opposition to this idea is that we asume that all men(and women) are equal (in rights). Departing from this basic idea opens up a whole new can of worms.

mss Hal

 

[Kimpatsu]

And the basic opposition to this idea is that we asume that all men(and women) are equal (in rights). Departing from this basic idea opens up a whole new can of worms.

...but someare more equal than others, right, Hal? People are required to pass a test before they can drive. Why not require them to apss a test before they test drive a country? (The deliciousness of this idea is that politicians would be among the test failures.)

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

I know that Singapre is repressive. The question I'm asking is, why should I care about Singaporean repression if I don't live there and have to suffer the repression personally? (Devil's advocate, you see.)

Because you're suggesting a democracy based on Singapore. The problem with that model is that part of the reason it's successful is the socially repressive nature of the government there. Any model patterned after Singapore's would need to include that component for maintaining domestic tranquility.

 

[Ziggurat]

No, again there's a vast difference. One of my choices is not to vote. Casting a donkey vote is merely a waste of time in going to the polling station, or applying for a postal vote. I can't choose to opt out of paying taxes, however.

But you haven't provided any argument for WHY you can be compelled to file taxes but not file a vote, even a blank one.

What I can do is vote for a party that reflects my views on taxation: too much, or not enough. Mandatory voting removes my right to be apathetic.

No it doesn't. Trust me, I'm a master in apathy, I can do absolutely anything and still be apathetic about it if I choose.

Casting a donkey vote is differnt; it means I cared enough to register a protest.

Not under a mandatory voting system. If voting is mandatory, a donkey vote can be the very height of an expression of apathy. You could even leave the damn thing blank, as long as you filed it.

But apathy is still a right, even if you might find it morally wrong. Butthen again, you shouldn't be getting into other people's morals, anyway, should you?

But it's not about morals, and it's not about apathy. I'm apathetic about taxes, but I still have to file. I'm not sure why you're trying to argue based on a "right" to apathy, when that "right" is impossible for states to take away from people. You can be as apathetic as you want, even about actions you are being forced to do. It's like arguing that the government can't take away your right to be angry, or cheerful, or stupid. Of course they can't, but that's because there's no possible way for the government to do that even if they wanted to.

 

[Ziggurat]

What about my right to abstain from voting? Maybe I'm an anarchist who finds the very notion of voting abhorrant. And that is my right.

It's your right to find voting abhorent. But that doesn't mean you have a fundamental right to not do so. A lot of people abhor paying taxes even on principle, probably more than abhor voting. Yet they do not have a right to refrain from filing their taxes. The government can make you do things you abhor, that's not the issue, and never was. You can FIND voting as abhorent as you want until the cows come home, nobody cares, just like you can find filing taxes abhorent, but at the end of the day the government already forces you to do the later, why is the former fundamentally different?

 

[Hal 2001]

Mandatory voting

I can't see how mandatory vote would make anything better.

Do you really think people when obliged to vote will gain interest? I am more inclined to think that those who did not intent to vote in the first place, will just go up and vote blank or even worse vote randomly. They are beeing obliged against their will to make an action, they are not obliged to be interested.

Non mandatory vote is in my opinion better, only people that have a minimum of interest votes.


Mss Hal

 

[geni]

Just rember the people with the highest level of state intervention in their lives and the most to lose is the goverment manages to mess thing up dan't have a vote at all migh be interesting to ask LK and Yahew waht they think about this one.
On this isue of compusory voting I have two points. First I'm in favor of people who don't care not bothering to vote it just means that my vote counts for more. Secondly even where there is compulory voting I belive the penalty for not voting is fairly low so if you realy felt that you did not want to go to a polling both on election day yopu would not have to ( you just migh have to pay a small fine).

 

[Kimpatsu]

Payment of the fine is not acceptable, either. I have a right to toally abstain from voting if I so wish.

 

[Graham]

Payment of the fine is not acceptable, either. I have a right to toally abstain from voting if I so wish.

Where is this right enshrined, in your opinion?

Graham

 

[Graham]

That came out a little wrong, sorry. What I meant was, why do you consider that "the right not to vote" is or should be a "right"?

Graham

 

[Kimpatsu]

That came out a little wrong, sorry. What I meant was, why do you consider that "the right not to vote" is or should be a "right"?

Graham

Voting is a right, and one of the ways I can exercise that right is to abstain.

 

[Graham]

Voting is a right, and one of the ways I can exercise that right is to abstain.

to you, what is the difference between abstaining and "spoiling" your vote?

Graham

 

[Kimpatsu]

to you, what is the difference between abstaining and "spoiling" your vote?

Graham

Spoiling the ballot paper is actually an act of defiance; I'm saying that I disapprove not only of all the candidates, but also of the system, whihc does not permit RON.
BTW, can one abstain or spoil a boat with an electronic voting machine in America?

 

[geni]

I belive that some of the compusory voting systems would give you right to abstain since the requirment is to got to the polling station there is no requirment for you to do anything once you get there. Would you find this acepterble?

 

[Kodiak]

A quick glance around, however, demonstrates that most people, are want of a better term, just too dumb to exercise their votes wisely. I don't mena in the partisan sense..., but from the perspective that the majority are so woefully uninformed or misinformed, they can't possibly exercise their vote sensibly.

Hmmm...
A system where the ignorant and apathetic don't vote...

Sounds perfect to me!

Wouldn't a benevolent democracy modelled on Singapore be a better option?

For welfare-loving leftists? Yeah...

 

[Kodiak]

You have a secret ballot, one of the options is to write exactly that on the ballot paper. No one can stop you, or prosecute you for doing so.

Just so long as the Voting Police see you drop that ballot in the box...

As for compulsory voting, the empirical evidence is in. Countries with compulsory voting have a higher participation rate in elections than those that don't.

WOW! Did you come up with that all by yourself?!

 

[Graham]

Spoiling the ballot paper is actually an act of defiance; I'm saying that I disapprove not only of all the candidates, but also of the system, whihc does not permit RON.

Non-attendence at the polling station is more likely to be interpreted as laziness/apathy, IMO.

Like it or not, the system in place is the system in place. You won't change it by not participating - you only exclude yourself.

If you do not approve of the current system, the appropriate action is to:

(a) vote for (or stand as) a candidate whose platform is to reform the system

(b) spoil your vote in an approptrite manner

What do you think of that?

BTW, can one abstain or spoil a boat with an electronic voting machine in America?

I don't know - you'd have to ask an American

Generally speacking though, IMO, electronic voting machines are a bad idea on boats regardless of their nationality!

Graham