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Is Amway A Scam?

Wowbagger said:
Look, icerat, you're simply dancing around, and not facing the problem I see with Amway.

You tell me: Is there any other good reason why someone would become an IBO, other than to become an "independent business owner"?
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That's a big factor in the debate. Why would someone become an independent business owner if not to run a business? I seriously doubt that many sign up to get a discount on Amway products, given the fact that even IBO pricing is often more expensive than comparable products that can be bought elsewhere.

And you're right. Many Amway presentations, including all that I have seen, include a lot of hype and woo. Talks about early retirement, wealth beyond your dreams, etc. Is that the presentation for people who want to buy products or earn an extra $50 a month?

And I find it humorous that Icerat compares Amway to McDonald's. McDonald's is a million dollar franchise where you are nearly assured of success and Amway is a stark contrast to that, where you are nearly assured failure.
 
Wowbagger said:
Look, icerat, you're simply dancing around, and not facing the problem I see with Amway.

If MOST of the IBOs fail to make any money what-so-ever (let along accomplish their goals, even if they do), then why the HELL is Amway letting that happen?
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(1) You seem incapable of understanding that people join (or remain with) Amway for reasons other than money

(2) You seem incapable of understanding what "opportunity" means.

The rest of the discussion is pretty much moot since you can't get past those two points.

Is the "Business Owner" part of "IBO" just as mislabeled as the "Independent" part?
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independent - I've already provided evidence that the use of the term "independent" in this manner is not unusual. Here's a bunch more examples.

business owner - If I apply to run the New York Marathon does that make me a runner?

I think it's very telling that so much of criticism of Amway comes down to this - people choosing to misinterpret what terms mean, and then eviscerating Amway for it.

Tell you what. Forget they're called IBOs. Call them members instead. That's what they're called in some places.

Happy now?

You tell me: Is there any other good reason why someone would become an IBO, other than to become an "independent business owner"?
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I've explained this numerous times on this thread. Why should I believe that explaining it again will make any difference?
 
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icerat said:
(1) You seem incapable of understanding that people join (or remain with) Amway for reasons other than money

(2) You seem incapable of understanding what "opportunity" means.
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You seem incapable of describing Amway in any way that sounds like it is supposed to be a perfectly legitimate enterprise.

icerat said:
independent - I've already provided evidence that the use of the term "independent" in this manner is not unusual. Here's a bunch more examples.

business owner - If I apply to run the New York Marathon does that make me a runner?

(snip)

Tell you what. Forget they're called IBOs. Call them members instead. That's what they're called in some places.

Happy now?
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Yes, I am very happy. Thanks for the Newspeak dictionary definitions.
 
icerat said:
Care to explain how you come to that conclusion?
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I'm not going to go into great lengths to explain myself as it's a waste of time and it's been quite obvious to me for years. I mean, after all, Amway is basically a legal pyramid scheme and through design most people won't make money. End of story.

If you need great details of why it's a scam, just keep reading Joecool's, Baggers, Marplots and many other's posts. Actually, you should probably go back to page 1 and do some re-reading. I thank these members immensely.
 
Wirelight said:
I'm not going to go into great lengths to explain myself as it's a waste of time and it's been quite obvious to me for years. I mean, after all, Amway is basically a legal pyramid scheme and through design most people won't make money.

End of story.
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Yup, end of story. You believe (contrary to reality) that Amway operates as a pyramid scheme (a "legal" pyramid scheme is a contradiction), and thus believe Amway has the very real flaws of pyramid schemes.

It's, alas, quite common.

Based on past experience you will then leap through enormous numbers of cognitive hoops, believe ridiculous things, ignore all contrary evidence from independent reliable sources, and rely instead on claims from a bunch of anonymous bloggers and forumites that refuse to provide any independent reliable sources for their claims - but support your pre-existing supposition.

End of story. :rolleyes:
 
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Wirelight said:
I'm not going to go into great lengths to explain myself as it's a waste of time and it's been quite obvious to me for years. I mean, after all, Amway is basically a legal pyramid scheme and through design most people won't make money. End of story.

If you need great details of why it's a scam, just keep reading Joecool's, Baggers, Marplots and many other's posts. Actually, you should probably go back to page 1 and do some re-reading. I thank these members immensely.
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Thank you! Amway is a lousy business by itself. The products are not competitive and are mainly self consumed by IBO's who are fed lies about wealth beyond their dreams and retiring at the age of 29. While the IBO's "think" Amway will make them rich, they don't mind paying for Amway stuff. Once the dream goes, so goes the desire for Amway products. Amway also has restrictions that inhibit IBO's from making sales. Icerat claims these are in place to make things fair for the distributors. I call BS. If some guy figures out a way to mass market Amway products, why would Amway prevent that from happening? And that's just Amway.

The symbiotic tool companies that sell cd's and seminars to the Amway hopefuls are in fact, simply extracting more money from the pockets of those who hope Amway will deliver their dreams. Most people join for a short while and realize it's a useless endeavor and get out. Most won't file complaints about their friends or cousins who sponsored them. Some however, stay in Amway for many years and rack up bills in the tens of thousands of dollars. Many are lied to about these 'tools". They are not vital to anyone's success except for those who sell the tools.

Icerat, who defends these practices, is part of the problem.
 
Wowbagger said:
You seem incapable of describing Amway in any way that sounds like it is supposed to be a perfectly legitimate enterprise.
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To which I refer back to an earlier post


And to which can now be added

Amway parent company climbs to #11 in The Patent Board Consumer Products scorecard

Seriously, if people didn't have their preconceived beliefs about Amway, would you even remotely consider a company with those kind of facts behind it to be "illegitimate"?

Reminds me of this video from Amway Australia a few years ago -



I'm done with responding to wowbagger, he's made his beliefs clear and damned if reality is going to get in the way of them ;)

Still a few other interesting side threads that have appeared, I'm happy to continue sensible conversation on the topic.

ETA: An updated one from the US -

 
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What exactly does an independent business owner own?

I'd note that I do own a business and I could sell it to you if I wanted to. Can an IBO at least do that much? What exactly do they own?
 
marplots said:
What exactly does an independent business owner own?

I'd note that I do own a business and I could sell it to you if I wanted to. Can an IBO at least do that much? What exactly do they own?
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Yes Amway (and other MLM) business can be (and are) bought and sold. Most decent size businesses are LLC's or Incs, etc.

This guy (with an awful website) is a broker for (non-amway) MLM deals.
 
icerat said:
  • #25 largest privately held American company
  • [url=http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/amway-parent-company-climbs-to-11-in-the-patent-board-consumer-products-scorecard-222242051.html]Amway parent company climbs to #11 in The Patent Board Consumer Products scorecard
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  • This, at least, is one piece of evidence that the products might have some worth, maybe.

    I'll have to look into exactly what this means.
 
icerat said:
To which I refer back to an earlier post

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Great for Amway. How does that translate into profitability for Amway dsitributors?
 
marplots said:
What exactly does an independent business owner own?

I'd note that I do own a business and I could sell it to you if I wanted to. Can an IBO at least do that much? What exactly do they own?
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Again, Amway has restrictive rules on selling businesses. In reality, most Amway businesses have no equity. There is no property or equipment (typically) to deal with. What you are basically selling is the rights to downline volume.

A former IBO who did sell a business once told me that the process is nebulous. You must offer your business upline first. But that's dicey because if you quit or disappear, upline gets your downline anyway so there's little incentive for upline to buy your business. After that it gets offered to others in some type of protocol but I'm unsure of all the parameters. Basically the person who sold their business said it was a pain and they got little for what was a pretty sizable business.
 
icerat said:
Yes Amway (and other MLM) business can be (and are) bought and sold. Most decent size businesses are LLC's or Incs, etc.

This guy (with an awful website) is a broker for (non-amway) MLM deals.
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That's interesting. I didn't think it could be done because of rule 2.8 and the IBO registration agreement.

Rule 2.8 (LOS) says:
2.8. LOS Information includes all information that discloses or relates to all or part of the Line of Sponsorship, including but not limited to IBO numbers and other IBO business identification data, IBO personal contact information, IBO business performance information, and all information generated or derived therefrom, in its past, present or future forms.
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And under item six in the terms and conditions (which incorporates the Rules of Conduct):
6. Amway’s Proprietary Information and Trade Secrets. You recognize and agree that, as further set forth in Rule 6, LOS information (as defined in Rule 2.8), constitutes a commercially advantageous, unique and proprietary trade secret owned by Amway. During the term of your IBO Contract, in accordance with and subject to compliance with Rule 6 and any other related
Rules or procedures, Amway grants you a limited, non-exclusive, non-transferable and revocable license to use LOS Information...
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Not being a lawyer myself and just reading those as written, it sounds like Amway owns your "list" and you can't transfer it without their permission. You couldn't even tell anyone who you are doing business with (contact information). Do many IBO's get a lawyer to look this stuff over before they sign?


Here are the relevant links if anyone is interested:
http://www.amway.com/en/ResourceCenterDocuments/Visitor/prsp-amw-frm-v-en--IBORegistrationForm.pdf
http://www.amway.com/support/ordering-product-support/rules-of-conduct
 
Joecool said:
Basically the person who sold their business said it was a pain and they got little for what was a pretty sizable business.
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Tiny resale value. That's always a warning sign.

Reminds me of one of the reasons my dad avoided timeshare deals. If timeshares were so great, why did they have such a small resale value?

Of course, that was back in the days when they actually had a resale value. Today, it is even worse: You usually have to pay someone to unload your timeshare on to them. You can't expect to resell them, anymore.
 
Wowbagger said:
Tiny resale value. That's always a warning sign.

Reminds me of one of the reasons my dad avoided timeshare deals. If timeshares were so great, why did they have such a small resale value?

Of course, that was back in the days when they actually had a resale value. Today, it is even worse: You usually have to pay someone to unload your timeshare on to them. You can't expect to resell them, anymore.
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Wowbagger,
That would be an interesting experiment. See if we can buy an existing IBO and see how much it's worth. Might be a way to get into the business without having to do all the direct selling work.
 
NewtonTrino said:
The funny thing is that most people are attacking amway based on the business opportunity. This is really only scratching the surface of the level of scam that amway yes. Yes it's a pretty crappy business "opportunity" but even if it was a great business opportunity the cults that it's built around would still be nasty to deal with.

According to released figures a "diamond" level distributor would make around $150,000 a year in profit. Not a bad living (if it's true) but certainly not the millions that amway distributors promote as the expected outcome. The reason some of these kingpin distributors do make millions is through the selling of the motivational business which includes cd's, videos, books and of course seminars.

If you consider how many distributors some of these people have in their organization you can do some simple math on monetization outside of the amway products themselves. That's where the real scam is and that's where the top guys make the real money.
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Spot on! I see the Amway opportunity as a classic bait and switch scam.

"Come join Amway and earn untold wealth" "Anyone can succeed" "You can be retired in 2-5 years living on residual income"

"All you need to do is work and buy the tools and you will succeed" - and that's where the scam is.
 
Joecool said:
icerat said:
To which I refer back to an earlier post

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Great for Amway. How does that translate into profitability for Amway dsitributors?
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^^This.

So the Amway corporation itself is hugely successful. How does this help prove it's not a huge scam that's getting away with taking advantage of lots of people?
 
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