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icerat
Philosopher
Far less than say, a franchise. Become a reseller for almost any brand and their are restrictions on use.
Buy stuff in volume (calculated monthly), earn a discount, sell in smaller volumes, pocket difference.
Far more than that. But that wasn't the question was it?
icerat
Philosopher
No, you're being an idiot.
Yes you are, you purchasing products you don't want or need in order to qualify for bonuses or commissions you haven't earned.
In other words, you are committing fraud.
It's hard to police stupidity and fraud, yes.
Intervening three decades. Ever heard of computers? Internet?
That's the recommended retail price. It's not the price IBOs pay.
Thanks for proving the point. Buy 6 tubes from amway.com directly as a customer, $12.00. On ebay, $23.95
IBOs can get those 6 tubes for as little as $7.55
The discussion with wowbagger is relative to other business opportunities (or at least, ways to make money)
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icerat
Philosopher
Buy off an IBO and you normally won't pay shipping. You also get a satisfaction guarantee.
I note also the second product is in grams, so not even a US product. I would suspect they may be fake knockoffs from China.
Which you'll buy and then complain Amway products are crap.
I went to the Amway link and added 5 tubes to the cart and the total with shipping is $32.75. The eBay seller total with shipping is $33.00 for 5 tubes.
The second product is in a size not available in the US, there is no telling where these came from - if they are even real.
aggle-rithm
Ardent Formulist
Unfortunately, no. It would be much easier to avoid them that way.
I know they're involved with Amway because I manage to drag that fact out of them after they have been gibbering vaguely about business opportunities for thirty minutes.
icerat
Philosopher
So, you know that all Amway IBOs gibber vaguely about business opportunities because people you meet who gibber vaguely about business opportunities are Amway IBOs?
Zelenius
Muse
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2008
- Messages
- 908
Amway is a scam
oh you better scram
when its zombies come near
to take all that is dear
To send it up the pyramid scheme
while saying its the American dream
you must recruit everyone you know
if you want to make that dough
But then soon you awoke
and found yourself broke
For this Amway dream
was just another pyramid scheme
oh you better scram
when its zombies come near
to take all that is dear
To send it up the pyramid scheme
while saying its the American dream
you must recruit everyone you know
if you want to make that dough
But then soon you awoke
and found yourself broke
For this Amway dream
was just another pyramid scheme
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aggle-rithm
Ardent Formulist
Years ago I worked in the distribution department at IBM, delivering office supplies and such around the large campus here. It was during the dark days of the early 90's when IBM was in a slump and was considering ending its no-layoff policy. At that time, a LOT of IBMers got into Amway. Several guys on our delivery team got hit with the Amway spiel.
My own personal experience was with a guy who struck up a conversation with me when I brought him his packages. He asked if I wanted to go out to lunch to get to know each other better.
Here's the thing: Since I am socially inept, and was even more so back then, I had no way of knowing whether this was normal behavior or not. It seemed suspicious to me, but I didn't want to violate some unknown social convention by refusing his invitation.
It was, of course, an Amway pitch. I was very polite and sat through the whole thing, but didn't commit to anything and eventually he let the whole thing drop. (He was eventually fired from IBM for doing this sort of thing.)
The other guys on my team didn't fare so well. People would befriend them, give them the Amway pitch, and when they said they weren't interested, discard them like yesterday's garbage, telling them they would never succeed in life.
I think that ends up being part of the strategy with Amway reps...target people living on the fringes, socially awkward people and/or those who have to deliver boxes to pay the bills. These are the ones who are most likely to turn over what little money they have for a chance at a comfortable, stress-free lifestyle.
I've gotten a little wiser since then. The last time I was given the spiel, I managed to put a stop to it before I wasted too much time and flat out told the guy I wasn't interested.
My own personal experience was with a guy who struck up a conversation with me when I brought him his packages. He asked if I wanted to go out to lunch to get to know each other better.
Here's the thing: Since I am socially inept, and was even more so back then, I had no way of knowing whether this was normal behavior or not. It seemed suspicious to me, but I didn't want to violate some unknown social convention by refusing his invitation.
It was, of course, an Amway pitch. I was very polite and sat through the whole thing, but didn't commit to anything and eventually he let the whole thing drop. (He was eventually fired from IBM for doing this sort of thing.)
The other guys on my team didn't fare so well. People would befriend them, give them the Amway pitch, and when they said they weren't interested, discard them like yesterday's garbage, telling them they would never succeed in life.
I think that ends up being part of the strategy with Amway reps...target people living on the fringes, socially awkward people and/or those who have to deliver boxes to pay the bills. These are the ones who are most likely to turn over what little money they have for a chance at a comfortable, stress-free lifestyle.
I've gotten a little wiser since then. The last time I was given the spiel, I managed to put a stop to it before I wasted too much time and flat out told the guy I wasn't interested.
aggle-rithm
Ardent Formulist
You managed to fit two strawmen and a non-sequitur in the same sentence. Very impressive.
For the record, though, I never claimed that all Amway IBOs gibber vaguely about business opportunities, only the ones I and people I know have encountered. Also, it doesn't follow from what I said that only Amway people gibber vaguely about business opportunities.
Zelenius
Muse
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2008
- Messages
- 908
Kudos to IBM! That's how you deal with scam-pushers. Laugh at them or kick them to the gutter!
I'm also happy to hear you didn't fall for it.
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This was written in reply to Wowbagger, but I wanted to comment.
As I linked to earlier, the Amway "brand" has negative connotations and members were debating how far they could go to avoid using the name.
Here is the link to their blog on the topic: http://blogs.amway.com/amwayinsider/2011/03/03/whats-in-a-name/#comments
This is the opposite of what I buy when I buy a franchise name. If I opened a McDonald's, I would very much count on the good will McDonald's has built up for their products instead of worrying about potential customers finding out I was running a McDonald's. This is a serious problem.
Compare this to what you posted to me when discussing prices for products:
and...
This is the black/white think I was referring to. When calculating what a good deal Amway products are, I am supposed to think in terms of a discounted purchase an IBO gets - the "buyer's club" model.
But when thinking about making money as an IBO, I am supposed to think about profit margins and selling retail. But retail needs people to purchase at retail prices. It's the very engine that makes a business profitable.
The same tube of toothpaste is both a money-maker for an IBO and a cheap way to get things wholesale. If I sponsor someone, they buy wholesale. If I do not sponsor them, I should be selling at the higher retail price - except if I'm price comparing, I shouldn't compare based on retail because the better deal can be had wholesale. And around it goes.
As a business person, I should evaluate the products I am selling based on the price I have to sell them at to make a buck. As soon as someone starts buying wholesale, I get a piece because I'm in their upline, but I also lose a retail sale and the potential profit - which, based on Amway's pricing structure and what we have been told, is a substantial difference.
In effect, if I am sponsoring an IBO, and they do no appreciable business themselves (which we are told is overwhelmingly the case), I am cutting my own throat because they are now wholesale customers. And, the way to gain ground in Amway is to build a network?
The only entity that makes the same amount of money in either situation is Amway. How is this not a scam again?
Amway is like the casino who runs the poker game. Some players may win and the majority lose, but Amway always gets their cut of the pot.
As I linked to earlier, the Amway "brand" has negative connotations and members were debating how far they could go to avoid using the name.
Here is the link to their blog on the topic: http://blogs.amway.com/amwayinsider/2011/03/03/whats-in-a-name/#comments
This is the opposite of what I buy when I buy a franchise name. If I opened a McDonald's, I would very much count on the good will McDonald's has built up for their products instead of worrying about potential customers finding out I was running a McDonald's. This is a serious problem.
Compare this to what you posted to me when discussing prices for products:
and...
This is the black/white think I was referring to. When calculating what a good deal Amway products are, I am supposed to think in terms of a discounted purchase an IBO gets - the "buyer's club" model.
But when thinking about making money as an IBO, I am supposed to think about profit margins and selling retail. But retail needs people to purchase at retail prices. It's the very engine that makes a business profitable.
The same tube of toothpaste is both a money-maker for an IBO and a cheap way to get things wholesale. If I sponsor someone, they buy wholesale. If I do not sponsor them, I should be selling at the higher retail price - except if I'm price comparing, I shouldn't compare based on retail because the better deal can be had wholesale. And around it goes.
As a business person, I should evaluate the products I am selling based on the price I have to sell them at to make a buck. As soon as someone starts buying wholesale, I get a piece because I'm in their upline, but I also lose a retail sale and the potential profit - which, based on Amway's pricing structure and what we have been told, is a substantial difference.
In effect, if I am sponsoring an IBO, and they do no appreciable business themselves (which we are told is overwhelmingly the case), I am cutting my own throat because they are now wholesale customers. And, the way to gain ground in Amway is to build a network?
The only entity that makes the same amount of money in either situation is Amway. How is this not a scam again?
Amway is like the casino who runs the poker game. Some players may win and the majority lose, but Amway always gets their cut of the pot.
You don't have to talk to an IBO, you can get it right from Amway on their website:
http://www.amway.com/start-a-business/we-are-amway
I particularly like this bit: "are you ready to change your life?"
Nicely done Amway. Of course I want to change my miserable life. Oh wait. Strike that. I'd rather buy your wonderful products at a discount by signing up as an IBO and not trying to make a profit. A much slighter change I suppose, but still a kind of change. I guess.
This reminds me of how I became an atheist. I listened to what the Christians were actually saying and read their book. Like Christianity, Amway is its own worst enemy. The more you know, the more repugnant it becomes. And like Christianity, you will find zealots willing to help you misunderstand it as faithfully as they do.
icerat
Philosopher
Sure. And how do you deal with the non-scam pushers?
Partner with them and give them awards
I asked you how you knew people you encountered where with Amway, and you said it was because of the gibbering etc.
My statement about your beliefs logically follows from the statements you have made.
It doesn't however follow that your beliefs are logical, which it appears you have acknowledged, while continuing to maintain them.
MarkCorrigan
Героям слава!
Forgive e icerat, I'm totally new to this, and yes I'm probably going to ask questions that may have been answered in this mammoth thread but I want to know how this might work.
So, let's say I know 5 people, Bill, who already sells Amway, and 4 others who do not; Charles, Ted, Jane and Sue.
I'm interested in getting into Amway. First question, do I have to join through Bill, or can I just contact Amway direct?
So, let's say I know 5 people, Bill, who already sells Amway, and 4 others who do not; Charles, Ted, Jane and Sue.
I'm interested in getting into Amway. First question, do I have to join through Bill, or can I just contact Amway direct?
icerat
Philosopher
I agree, which is why I wrote this blog post, which Amway (then Quixtar) responded to a few days later, and then later embraced fully with their return to the Amway name in north america.
Moving the goal posts any? This whole discussion on prices was about whether Amway IBOs or former Amway IBOs are dumping product at less than cost because they couldn't sell them or use them.
You have clearly disproven your own thesis, showing this isn't happening to any real extent at all on ebay.
After how many posts are you still this ignorant of the business model and commission structure?
Yes, you are losing the base retail profit margin - but you still earn volume discount margins. It is less of course, and I for one do not encourage people to focus on signing up people purely as wholesale buyers for this very reason. Amway is trialling various methods to discourage it as well.
Wrong. You apparently have next to no idea how the business model you've spent so much time criticising actually works.
icerat
Philosopher
Yes, has been discussed. You can contact Amway directly and they will allocate you a sponsor, whom you can choose to have nothing to do with if you wish. You will then of course be in competition with Bill.
MarkCorrigan
Героям слава!
Right. So, I get into business with Bill as my sponsor, let's say. I buy 31 tubes of toothpaste direct from Amway. Do these 31 tubes count towards Bill's sales figures as he is my sponsor?
Next, I decide to keep one tube for myself, as this is allowed as I understand it, and sell the remainder. I sell 26 of them. If the answer to the above was yes do these 26 also count towards Bill's sales figures?
Next, I decide to keep one tube for myself, as this is allowed as I understand it, and sell the remainder. I sell 26 of them. If the answer to the above was yes do these 26 also count towards Bill's sales figures?
icerat
Philosopher
Yup, just like if you bought 31 pallets of coke from a coke wholesaler, they'd count in the coke wholesalers sales figures.
I'm not sure I understand, you seem to be asking the same question twice? The 26 have already been included in Bill's sales. And there's 4 tubes missing? (still in stock?)
MarkCorrigan
Героям слава!
Yup, just like if you bought 31 pallets of coke from a coke wholesaler, they'd count in the coke wholesalers sales figures.
I'm not sure I understand, you seem to be asking the same question twice? And there's 4 tubes missing? (still in stock?)
Forgive my poor phrasing.
As an aside, I can understand if you are a bit hesitant to respond to me as openly as you might like, as no matter whether Amway is a scam or not, some people have been brusque with you. I will openly admit that from what little I know it sounds bad to me, but I also openly admit I know very, very little so I want to learn about how it works before I come down on either side.
Now, back to my questions. So, I buy 31 tubes of toothpaste from Amway and these are counted in Bill's figures. I meant to ask, are they counted a second time when I sell them on, or just once for the first time I purchased them?
the four remaining tubes are for my second question. I want to return them to Amway, which (if I am understanding correctly) they will pay me back for meaning I lose nothing?