Is Amway A Scam?

[elbe]

I have a cousin who sells (or sold) Amway explicitly as an easy way for her to buy specific products she liked. Sometimes she'd sell products to family or friends who happened to want anything but I don't believe she was actively selling. It's an interesting situation where, for her, the best way to buy a product was to "sell" the product; if their products are as good as some people say they should probably try operating as a real business. Personally I don't like, or trust, sales people and companies like Amway that basically tell people to do that to their friends or families automatically earns my ire.

 

[Joecool]

I have a cousin who sells (or sold) Amway explicitly as an easy way for her to buy specific products she liked. Sometimes she'd sell products to family or friends who happened to want anything but I don't believe she was actively selling. It's an interesting situation where, for her, the best way to buy a product was to "sell" the product; if their products are as good as some people say they should probably try operating as a real business. Personally I don't like, or trust, sales people and companies like Amway that basically tell people to do that to their friends or families automatically earns my ire.

I believe that the vast majority of the Amway products are either self consumed by the distributors, or sold to sympathetic friends and family members.

In most cases, the Amway products simply are not competitive in price with retailers, not to mention you often need to pay extra for shipping etc.

Without the Amway distributors buying most of the products, Amway's sales would be a small fraction of what it is now.

Amway distributors must use tactics such as citing concentration factors, or subjective claims of superior quality. Some zany ones like Icerat, even go so far as to say Amway toothpaste is a better value because the tube has a smaller hole than some other brands of toothpaste.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

You think wrong. First time I joined Amway I was 20, I did nothing but sell the products. Didn't recruit anyone, made a profit.



Suggesting people read a classic book on people skills is "over the top"?

I'd note that Amway runs very very few conventions, mostly for higher achievers. The type of conventions you are likely talking about are by a variety of third party companies, such as that highlighted by dateline above.



Ummm, no. I'm nowhere near a "top" level and you don't make any money at all by signing up "newbies". Zero. Ziltch. As I pointed out, but you apparently ignored since it doesn't fit your world view, the network has had nobody new join it in over a decade. I make money because people are buying products I introduced them to.



Who were the seminars operated by? Unless you were Platinum or higher (which you weren't) then it wasn't Amway. How many seminars have you been to operated by the Muller-Meerkatz WWD organization? Or eFinity? Or Network 21? These are all different, independent, third party companies that offer support services to Amway business owners.



In 10 years of researching and writing about Amway, including attending many seminars with the largest Amway organization in the world, the only people I've ever heard talking about "paying cash for a new home" are rabid critics like yourself.

Never heard it.



Tell me, Chris. What percentage of Amway's revenue comes from new recruits? You clearly think it is the primary revenue driver. Could you give some details?



Amway doesn't make cereal. In some markets they offer products from other companies. Some



Are you aware there's more than one type of toothpaste? Even at Walmart!



Yes, it's based on volume discounting, paid as rebates, you don't get a discount unless you reach certain volume levels. Pretty normal business.



So somebody goes to my personal Amway website and buys a product, and gets it shipped to their home, and that's "difficult to accept"?

Or someone I introduced to Amway products goes to their Amway website and buys stuff, and gets it shipped to their home, and because I have enough people doing this that I qualify for volume rebates on these sales, that's "difficult to accept"?

Apparently you've missed this thing called "the internet".

So, a MLM enterprise that does not require new recruits. That's MLM huh...Are you serious?

And so, you never recruited anyone the "first" time you joined.

Very eloquent, now when you joined the 2nd time or any time after that, did you recruit new members then? I bet you did......... Have you drawn the circles on your dry erase board? I bet you have.

Because that's exactly what you're trying to do here. Promote curiosity. Gain new leads. Sure I know you're trying to promote Amway internet business curiosity. You're also trying to promote the idea that new members do not have to recruit others to be successful. You're forgetting something though, everyone here already knows, Amway is a MLM company. You cannot succeed in MLM without new members being recruited, period.

You're backing away from the conventions again. You're still trying to say I must have been to a third party convention. I'm sure you're not aware of the National Conventions? Like held in St Louis? Ring a bell? I think you do know exactly what I'm talking about. I think you know about the motivational tapes/cd's pushed too. But it seems you don't want everyone to know the type of push promoted. It's high pressure and it's done to pump up new recruits with positive reinforcement. Hitler did something similar with his youth groups.

So you've never heard of anyone in Amway brag about paying cash for a "house".
OK, again very eloquent, so what big ticket items paid in cash have you heard Amway upper levels claim? Any?

Being eloquent with your statements is kinda funny because it shows exactly the type person it takes to succeed in Amway. You don't volunteer any extra info...lol and your eloquence is intended to hide or omit the negative while reinforcing the positive. I can see why you fit into Amway. You'd also be a good reverend if you ever wanted to start your own church.

I can see the status and eloquence you're trying to portray in your posts. Status is useless and regardless what you've been taught at Amway, status isn't worth anything to anyone else except you, within your own mind.

Eloquence is often the tool of politicians. So be prepared to clarify.

 

[icerat]

So, a MLM enterprise that does not require new recruits. That's MLM huh...Are you serious?

MLM is a strategy. They are direct selling companies. Build a network is inherently little different to any company building a distribution network. Indeed, as found by the FTC nearly 40 years ago - so you must know about it since you're apparently such an expert - Amway distribution networks are similar or more efficient than "traditional" distribution.

Very eloquent, now when you joined the 2nd time or any time after that, did you recruit new members then? I bet you did......... Have you drawn the circles on your dry erase board? I bet you have.

Yup, a long time ago. Technology has changed. I'm sure you've noticed.

Because that's exactly what you're trying to do here. Promote curiosity. Gain new leads.

ROFLMAO! Seriously?

You cannot succeed in MLM without new members being recruited, period.

So that's your response? I must be lying when I said I sold products and made a profit?

You're backing away from the conventions again. You're still trying to say I must have been to a third party convention. I'm sure you're not aware of the National Conventions? Like held in St Louis? Ring a bell?

Nope, it doesn't. Amway hasn't run it's own open conventions in the US for I think 30 years. You'd know this if you actually had any experience, so it would appear you don't.

I think you do know exactly what I'm talking about. I think you know about the motivational tapes/cd's pushed too. But it seems you don't want everyone to know the type of push promoted. It's high pressure and it's done to pump up new recruits with positive reinforcement. Hitler did something similar with his youth groups.

Oh goodie, Godwin's law. Does that mean I win?

So you've never heard of anyone in Amway brag about paying cash for a "house".
OK, again very eloquent, so what big ticket items paid in cash have you heard Amway upper levels claim? Any?

Apart from people like you? None. The people I work with have more class than that. Very tacky if you ask me.

 

[icerat]

I use their Laundry soap. I prefer it. Wife gets it from a gal she works with, who has had a modest distributorship for over a decade. We used their powdered dish washer soap on trial, and it's OK, but I am not sure it's any better than the other stuff I use.

I'm sorry Darth, but you're in danger of disappearing in a puff of (ill)logic, since everyone knows that Amway customers don't exist.

 

[Joecool]

MLM is a strategy. They are direct selling companies. Build a network is inherently little different to any company building a distribution network. Indeed, as found by the FTC nearly 40 years ago - so you must know about it since you're apparently such an expert - Amway distribution networks are similar or more efficient than "traditional" distribution.

Total BS.

 

[Joecool]

So, a MLM enterprise that does not require new recruits. That's MLM huh...Are you serious?

And so, you never recruited anyone the "first" time you joined.

Very eloquent, now when you joined the 2nd time or any time after that, did you recruit new members then? I bet you did......... Have you drawn the circles on your dry erase board? I bet you have.

Because that's exactly what you're trying to do here. Promote curiosity. Gain new leads. Sure I know you're trying to promote Amway internet business curiosity. You're also trying to promote the idea that new members do not have to recruit others to be successful. You're forgetting something though, everyone here already knows, Amway is a MLM company. You cannot succeed in MLM without new members being recruited, period.

You're backing away from the conventions again. You're still trying to say I must have been to a third party convention. I'm sure you're not aware of the National Conventions? Like held in St Louis? Ring a bell? I think you do know exactly what I'm talking about. I think you know about the motivational tapes/cd's pushed too. But it seems you don't want everyone to know the type of push promoted. It's high pressure and it's done to pump up new recruits with positive reinforcement. Hitler did something similar with his youth groups.

So you've never heard of anyone in Amway brag about paying cash for a "house".
OK, again very eloquent, so what big ticket items paid in cash have you heard Amway upper levels claim? Any?

Being eloquent with your statements is kinda funny because it shows exactly the type person it takes to succeed in Amway. You don't volunteer any extra info...lol and your eloquence is intended to hide or omit the negative while reinforcing the positive. I can see why you fit into Amway. You'd also be a good reverend if you ever wanted to start your own church.

I can see the status and eloquence you're trying to portray in your posts. Status is useless and regardless what you've been taught at Amway, status isn't worth anything to anyone else except you, within your own mind.

Eloquence is often the tool of politicians. So be prepared to clarify.

Good post. Some people suspect that Icerat is paid by Amway to defend or promote them. Icerat claims he is not compensated so your assertion that he is promoting Amway eloquently is very likely on the mark.

Funny how he distances Amway from "third party" companies. These company's sole purpose is to sell (for profits) training and motivational materials to Amway IBO's. These companies would not exist without Amway and they make nice profits even if every single IBO they train ends up losing money.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Thanks Joe, Amway conventions are put on by Amway. It makes no difference who owns the building or who organizes the convention for them, it's Amway's convention and they pay the bills and supply the speakers. Amway owns these conventions regardless what anyone tries to say.

"Dream building" sessions, pushing self improvement by purchasing and listening to audio materials over and over of their top levels speaking at conventions about how they made it.

It's an effective brainwashing technique. They'll say "So what's wrong with improving one's self?" Nothing is wrong with improving one's self but there is alot of major wrong with pushing and reprogramming minds to work endless hours for little or no pay on nothing more than hope of realizing their dream. (which was pushed/promoted by Amway)

One of their most important reprogramming tools used are the audio recordings. If one is not building fast enough, the up line starts showing up with fresh tapes/audio. For another "Dream building" session. It's positive reinforcement to get the downline motivated, up and running again, working for little to nothing all for the hope of getting their "dream". (implanted by Amway)

And there are other negative aspects for married couples. For some reason it's pushed that the wife must support her husband without question in everything about "the business". The wife is to be submissive, and that's not equal.

The new recruiting style is to spark curiosity about Amway internet business. To have new leads come to you instead of you out looking in the shopping malls. They have mailing lists and send out bulk emails, post on public forums to instill "curiosity", have websites with products available listed with search engines to gain hits and new leads.

There's nothing new about Amway. Amway is still a soap company that has taken in other vendor's products and services to sell at a wildly overpriced profit. Their customer base is made up almost entirely of their own business owners. The distributors are the end customer.

The only people making a decent living at Amway are the few at the top. Fact. But if for some reason somebody would like to pay routine prices like $10 for a travel size tube of toothpaste (really, that's the Amway price), I'm sure Icerat can fix you right up.

 

[catsmate]

<snip<Some zany ones like Icerat, even go so far as to say Amway toothpaste is a better value because the tube has a smaller hole than some other brands of toothpaste.

Really? I killfiled him as his repetitive, unthinking defense of Amway was simple silly, but that is really off the wall.

 

[666]

But if for some reason somebody would like to pay routine prices like $10 for a travel size tube of toothpaste (really, that's the Amway price), I'm sure Icerat can fix you right up.

I hate to do Icerat's work for him but, in fairness, the price would seem to be $12 for six travel size tubes. Still seems pricey, though.

http://www.amway.com/Shop/Product/Product.aspx?itemNo=E3460

 

[icerat]

Thanks Joe, Amway conventions are put on by Amway. It makes no difference who owns the building or who organizes the convention for them, it's Amway's convention and they pay the bills and supply the speakers. Amway owns these conventions regardless what anyone tries to say.

Chris, I've asked you several times for details, which you refuse to provide.

To the best of my knowledge Amway has not held a convention in St Louis - and not paid the bills nor supplied the speakers - in at least 30 years.

If you have other information, please share it.

which was pushed/promoted by Amway

One of their most important reprogramming tools used are the audio recordings.

Amway doesn't make tapes either, and hasn't for many decades.

And there are other negative aspects for married couples. For some reason it's pushed that the wife must support her husband without question in everything about "the business". The wife is to be submissive, and that's not equal.

ROFLMAO!!!

This is hilarious. Yes, I'm aware some Amway groups went this route. Also known for the so-called "prosperity gospel" and other evangelical christian teachings.

But the idea that a company that is well known and acknowledged for it's role in empowering women through helping them start their own business encouraged this is just absurd.

Their then China CEO Eva Cheng was named one of the world's most powerful women a few years ago.

Amway North America CMO Candace Matthews has been all over the news and places like Forbes talking about her role at Amway.

And you think this is a company that promotes "submissiveness"?

The new recruiting style is to spark curiosity about Amway internet business. To have new leads come to you instead of you out looking in the shopping malls. They have mailing lists and send out bulk emails,

A clear violation of Amway's rules. Report them

post on public forums to instill "curiosity", have websites with products available listed with search engines to gain hits and new leads.

Are you just making this stuff up for fun, or do you actually believe it?

There's nothing new about Amway. Amway is still a soap company

A soap company? I already provided the links showing it's the worlds #1 food supplement company and one of the biggest in the world in skin care and cosmetics.

It hasn't been a "soap company" in many, many years.

Seriously, this post is so full of BS I'm starting to suspect you're nothing but a troll

 

[icerat]

Really? I killfiled him as his repetitive, unthinking defense of Amway was simple silly, but that is really off the wall.

Yeah, like cheaper cost per use has no effect on value

Has anyone mentioned toilet paper yet? It's pretty normal when discussing the world's just vitamin and supplements company, and one of the world's largest skincare and cosmetics companies to talk about the price of toothpaste.

Have you seen the price of a can of coke at the local Toyota dealer? They're such a scam. I've no idea why anyone would want to sell Toyota's, their Coke is so expensive ....

I'm always fascinated by how utterly quickly some people's ability to think and reason just shuts down when it comes to certain topics.

I post citations and links and quote academic papers and professional independent researchers and authors. Joecool and Chris and others like them cite rumour and hearsay and plain old BS ... and I'm the one with the "repetitive, unthinking defense"

 

[icerat]

I hate to do Icerat's work for him but, in fairness, the price would seem to be $12 for six travel size tubes. Still seems pricey, though.

http://www.amway.com/Shop/Product/Product.aspx?itemNo=E3460

yeah, it's whitening, polishing anti-plaque blah blah blah etc etc etc, so not just your "regular" toothpaste. Some people use bicarb of soda which costs almost nothing. Some people buy Herbal brite which costs nearly 4 times glister at full retail price. Some people buy Colgate Total Advanced Whitening, which at full retail is over a $1/oz (Glister travel size is 87c/oz, normal size is 77c/oz)

Few companies though would say try it, if you don't think it's good value, get all your money back. I took them up on that deal. I like it, I'll keep buying it. You can buy and use whatever you want.

 

[marplots]

Icerat,
I think it should be clear by now that when we say, "Amway is a scam" we are not talking about the corporation as a distinct entity, but about the whole picture - including those who market their own downline and associated activities. If there is scamming going on, Amway may or may not make a buck through the unethical practices, but the taint and miasma is about the whole ecology, not specifically Amway corporate.

If the rebuttal is that independent businesses are going to go "off the reservation" at times, then one has to ask why MLM and Amway attract such people. Are they providing the tent where the carney can ply his trade?

If nothing else, it's guilt by association. For example, if I sell ingredients to homeopaths, wouldn't I be piggybacking on a fraud, even though my part of the scheme is second or third hand? So long as I am aware (or should be) of where the money is generated, I am participating.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I'm sorry Darth, but you're in danger of disappearing in a puff of (ill)logic, since everyone knows that Amway customers don't exist.

Oh dear, I'm doomed, but my clothes will be clean.

L.O.C. and the cleaning shoe polish off of the shoe rag, on the other hand, wasn't an impressive sales pitch.

 

[icerat]

Oh dear, I'm doomed, but my clothes will be clean.

L.O.C. and the cleaning shoe polish off of the shoe rag, on the other hand, wasn't an impressive sales pitch.

It probably was in 1959!

 

[icerat]

Icerat,
I think it should be clear by now that when we say, "Amway is a scam" we are not talking about the corporation as a distinct entity, but about the whole picture - including those who market their own downline and associated activities. If there is scamming going on, Amway may or may not make a buck through the unethical practices, but the taint and miasma is about the whole ecology, not specifically Amway corporate.

If the rebuttal is that independent businesses are going to go "off the reservation" at times, then one has to ask why MLM and Amway attract such people. Are they providing the tent where the carney can ply his trade?

If nothing else, it's guilt by association. For example, if I sell ingredients to homeopaths, wouldn't I be piggybacking on a fraud, even though my part of the scheme is second or third hand? So long as I am aware (or should be) of where the money is generated, I am participating.

The thing is marplots, as I pointed out above, independent sources indicate that fraud and misbehaviour is not a significant problem. Should Ford stop selling cars because some car salesmen are unethical?

Now, it is a significant problem in terms of reputation, but I'd argue an enormous amount of that is primarily an internet echo chamber effect. The U of Westminster paper supports this view, commenting that people with poor opinions of the industry appear to have primarily developed it from hearsay.

My research indicates similar effects. Some years back I analysed the published correspondence on an Amway critics website from a 2 year period. Less than a third of the "negative" correspondence was based on primary reporting. Another third was supporting the company. The remainder was people stating things like "I just joined and now read your site so I'm going to quit!" They'd reported no negative experience apart from reading the website - indeed the fact they'd actually joined implies an initial positive experience.

I'd also note that my own positive experience email to the website had not been published, so the site author was definitely not posting all the supportive emails.

Look at the discussion on this thread. ChrisBFRPKY is stating stuff as fact that is just completely false. Now he most likely believes it. He may have even been "in" Amway at some stage, but he's repeating as fact things that are just plain wrong, from his characterization of the seminar setup around Amway through to pricing.

I wonder how many people here have actually tried any Amway products?
How many have been to any Amway-related seminars?
How many have been to ones from different providers?
How many have read any of the independent books or research papers on the company and industry?

 

[tyr_13]

The thing is marplots, as I pointed out above, independent sources indicate that fraud and misbehaviour is not a significant problem. Should Ford stop selling cars because some car salesmen are unethical?

Well if it's also the case that 90+% of their salesman lose money, then yes, they should.

Now, it is a significant problem in terms of reputation, but I'd argue an enormous amount of that is primarily an internet echo chamber effect. The U of Westminster paper supports this view, commenting that people with poor opinions of the industry appear to have primarily developed it from hearsay.

So? That says nothing about the truth of the matter at all.

My research indicates similar effects. Some years back I analysed the published correspondence on an Amway critics website from a 2 year period. Less than a third of the "negative" correspondence was based on primary reporting. Another third was supporting the company. The remainder was people stating things like "I just joined and now read your site so I'm going to quit!" They'd reported no negative experience apart from reading the website - indeed the fact they'd actually joined implies an initial positive experience.

I'd also note that my own positive experience email to the website had not been published, so the site author was definitely not posting all the supportive emails.

Look at the discussion on this thread. ChrisBFRPKY is stating stuff as fact that is just completely false. Now he most likely believes it. He may have even been "in" Amway at some stage, but he's repeating as fact things that are just plain wrong, from his characterization of the seminar setup around Amway through to pricing.

I wonder how many people here have actually tried any Amway products?
How many have been to any Amway-related seminars?
How many have been to ones from different providers?
How many have read any of the independent books or research papers on the company and industry?

The seminars teaching the people who join Amway, who almost inevitably don't make any money selling the product, how to sell the product even though they are mostly actually there to buy the product and not to actually sell the product? Those seminars?

It's funny how when one strips out the extraneous stuff the base argument is so poor. Simultaneously arguing mutually exclusive things is usually pretty obvious, even behind a wall of words.

 

[AdMan]

icerat, I hope you are a paid shill, because otherwise you have a decidedly unhealthy obsession with Amway, which no one can deny has a less than stellar reputation. And you're defending toothpaste?

It's more than a little weird.

 

[marplots]

The thing is marplots, as I pointed out above, independent sources indicate that fraud and misbehaviour is not a significant problem. Should Ford stop selling cars because some car salesmen are unethical?

Now, it is a significant problem in terms of reputation, but I'd argue an enormous amount of that is primarily an internet echo chamber effect. The U of Westminster paper supports this view, commenting that people with poor opinions of the industry appear to have primarily developed it from hearsay.

But that is the value of hearsay. I do not have to repeat the mistakes of others. Surely you do the same?