Is Amway A Scam?

[icerat]

You've already admitted that was the popular and preferred method of making money as an Amway "rep"...setting up a team and selling THEM the crap to push on other people.

Once again, you expose your own misleading statements.

You apparently don't even know that an Amway "rep" is not Amway. That there are millions of independent Amway reps, and they operate independently of Amway.

Again, ultimately 100% of Amway products are sold to end users. You keep ignoring that fact.

Once again, using YOUR definition of "consumer", which is not that everyone else uses.

ROFLMAO!!!! So my definition of consumer - someone who consumes - is not the one everyone else uses?

No matter how many times you repeat your Big Lie, it's still a Big Lie.

Oh please ... do tell .... how does "everyone else" define a consumer?

But NOT by turning them into more wholesalers and retailers...which is what Amway does.

No it doesn't. Neither Amway nor Amway reps. The vast majority of people who buy Amway products are *not* wholesalers or retailers.

Maybe, maybe not if they didn't need another outlest in that region they might refuse to open one.

And if market saturation was reached in a region, an MLM wouldn't be able to open an outlet either.

So they just give away all those costly "sales tools" (the CDs, the seminars, etc)?

Amway doesn't sell CDs, and yes most Amway seminars are free. You're probably talking about stuff sold by third party companies. Shock horror they're not free.

We already know that's a lie.

What we know is you don't know what you're talking about.

And Amway will too, once it gets stripped of enough of it's supporters in the right places.

Uhuh. 52 years. 80 countries and territories. Democrat and Republican governments. Communists and Socialists. You name it.

Apart from a brief period in China when all direct selling was shut down, Amway has never been shutdown anywhere. Yet it's been investigated - and cleared every time.

You require a grand global conspiracy. I suppose it's an Illuminati thing?

No the problem is in your shuck and jive routine trying to call black white and white black.

Oh yes, a terrible problem me defining a consumer as someone who consumers.

Here is an excellent summation of the Amway method, true stats on Amway "success", and the dark side of Amway:

http://www.skepdic.com/amway.html

Oh yes, that article is so accurate. It doesn't even get this right -

In Amway, one is recruited as an "independent" distributor of Amway products by buying a couple of hundred dollars' worth of the products from the one who recruits you, known as your "upline.

Ahh, no Robert, that's not how you become a distributor.

 

[Muldur]

You apparently don't even know that an Amway "rep" is not Amway. That there are millions of independent Amway reps, and they operate independently of Amway.

Which is a nice little bit of legal jargon that insulates Amway from a lot of problems.

Again, ultimately 100% of Amway products are sold to end users. You keep ignoring that fact.

No, I keep calling it what it is: a lie.

ROFLMAO!!!! So my definition of consumer - someone who consumes - is not the one everyone else uses?

When it includes re-sellers as yours does, yes, it is in fact NOT the definition everyone else uses.

Amway doesn't sell CDs, and yes most Amway seminars are free. You're probably talking about stuff sold by third party companies. Shock horror they're not free.

Ah, there's that little legal fiction again...the books, cds, and motivational materials are "third party" operations...funny how Amway pushes them in their meetings, isn't it?

I just did a Yahoo search using the terms: amway sells cds books

here are some of the results off the first page:

http://amwayscheme.blogspot.com/2009/06/amway-how-upline-sells-you-dream-to.html

http://www.mlmwatchdog.com/mlm-amway.html

http://thefactsabouttheamwayopportu.../amway-global-ibos-use-soap-upline-sells.html

The rest of the first page was buy/sell sites for re-selling used Amway motivational materials, etc, and Amways own site.

Oh yes, that article is so accurate. It doesn't even get this right -

In Amway, one is recruited as an "independent" distributor of Amway products by buying a couple of hundred dollars' worth of the products from the one who recruits you, known as your "upline.

You mean the article based on the testimonies of former Amway distributers and people who have examined Amway's seminars and pitches in detail?

Ahh, no Robert, that's not how you become a distributor.

Funny, he got that information from former Amway distributors...

AND, here's a site BY a former distributor willing to tell the truth about Amway:

http://www.apollowebworks.com/amway/

Icerat, you aren't fooling us. You aren't fooling the general public either.

Amway = pyramid scheme mixed with Scientology-level fanaticism and dirty tricks.

 

[icerat]

Which is a nice little bit of legal jargon that insulates Amway from a lot of problems.

It also causes a lot of problems

No, I keep calling it what it is: a lie.

So where are these products going? >$9billion/yr with of stuff getting buried in back yards?

When it includes re-sellers as yours does, yes, it is in fact NOT the definition everyone else uses.

Great. So I can tell the tax authorities I don't need to pay retail sales tax?

Ah, there's that little legal fiction again...the books, cds, and motivational materials are "third party" operations...funny how Amway pushes them in their meetings, isn't it?

No they don't.

I just did a Yahoo search using the terms: amway sells cds books

Oh well, must be true then

here are some of the results off the first page:

http://amwayscheme.blogspot.com/2009/06/amway-how-upline-sells-you-dream-to.html

Joecool's blog. Nowhere mentions Amway selling cds and books.

http://www.mlmwatchdog.com/mlm-amway.html

Rod Cook's site. He makes a mistake in describing the UK case, but doesn't really matter since the case was dismissed.

http://thefactsabouttheamwayopportu.../amway-global-ibos-use-soap-upline-sells.html

another Joecool blog. Nowhere mentions Amway selling cds and books.

The rest of the first page was buy/sell sites for re-selling used Amway motivational materials, etc, and Amways own site.

"Amway motivational materials" does not mean Amway sells them. It's motivational materials used by people involved with Amway.

You mean the article based on the testimonies of former Amway distributers and people who have examined Amway's seminars and pitches in detail?

As a matter of fact, the first description of how "Amway works" by a distributor is not at all accurate. Some people were trying that model and it's (a) explictly against Amway's rules (b) doesn't work very well (c) led to a very large group getting kicked out of Amway because they were ignoring rules and operating in a manner that Amway believed might be a pyramid.

Funny, he got that information from former Amway distributors

Who are all such perfect beings. You do understand that some groups of Amway distributors were actively telling their downline not to communicate with Amway?

Perhaps that's the reason these folk were former - because they were operating in a manner contrary to Amway rules and in a way I've already described on this thread as unprofitable and unsustainable.

AND, here's a site BY a former distributor willing to tell the truth about Amway:

http://www.apollowebworks.com/amway/

No it's not. Russell Glasser was never an IBO. He believes and repeats many of the same myths you do.

Icerat, you aren't fooling us. You aren't fooling the general public either.

Amway = pyramid scheme mixed with Scientology-level fanaticism and dirty tricks.

Uhuh. And yet it keeps on growing. Even in the 52 year old US market sales are up the past 2 years.

 

[Muldur]

...funny how Amway pushes them in their meetings, isn't it?

No they don't.

Directly contradicted by the experiences of people who have attended the seminars, parties, etc, such as Mr Glasser

Oh well, must be true then

The information is available (with original source citations) for all to see.

Joecool's blog. Nowhere mentions Amway selling cds and books.

Let's see:

and that the key to this is to subscribe to their "system".
The system is usually a website, voicemail, cds, seminars and books.

What upline leaders really want is for a prospect to become a dedicated "customer" of their system. There is plenty of evidence and testimony that some upline leaders might be making almost all of their money from the system.

Since he's specifically talking about Amway...looks like you've just been exposed again with a significant untruth.

Rod Cook's site. He makes a mistake in describing the UK case, but doesn't really matter since the case was dismissed.

After some scrambling by Amway to make it look like they were at least trying to fix things to resemble compliance with the law, the Judge considered the suit redundant. Hardly a stunning testimonial to Amway's business ethics.

another Joecool blog. Nowhere mentions Amway selling cds and books.

again from the site:

the side business where the real money was made. That was in the sale of tapes/cds, books, and function tickets. When I was an IBO, we purchased voicemail from Amway, not from our upline. We also did not purchase website fees from upline as we still had call in and pick up. Thus uplines likely make even more income from support materials than ever. While the support materials are promoted as tools, they are cleverly used as "hope". You need motivation, listen to a cd. You need to get fired up, attend a function. My former sponsor claimed that being plugged into the system was your lifeline to success. I believe that is still true today. It is the "hope" of a better life that gets people to sign up for the Amway opportunity and it is that same hope that keeps an IBO going, even when they are losing money month after month.

Note the bolded. Joe is speaking from direct experience, just as Mr Glasser does on HIS page about what he experienced while undergoing "recruitment" by Amway.

"Amway motivational materials" does not mean Amway sells them. It's motivational materials used by people involved with Amway.

Sold initially by Amway Motivational Organizations, deliberately kept legally separate from Amway itself to ensure Amway has "clean hands". It's a neat little trick, but one that shouldn't fool anyone for one minute: those third parties' materials were originally sold TO Amway reps AS PART OF Amway's training and support system.

As a matter of fact, the first description of how "Amway works" by a distributor is not at all accurate. Some people were trying that model and it's (a) explictly against Amway's rules (b) doesn't work very well (c) led to a very large group getting kicked out of Amway because they were ignoring rules and operating in a manner that Amway believed might be a pyramid.

Translation: they got too greedy and got caught. Amway "disavowed" them to protect itself.

Who are all such perfect beings. You do understand that some groups of Amway distributors were actively telling their downline not to communicate with Amway?

Perhaps that's the reason these folk were former - because they were operating in a manner contrary to Amway rules and in a way I've already described on this thread as unprofitable and unsustainable.

See above.

No it's not. Russell Glasser was never an IBO. He believes and repeats many of the same myths you do.

Mr Glasser did not "belive myths", he reported what actually happened to him as a prospective Amway rep under recruitment. He was lucky enough to spot the trap, and smart enough to document it.

Uhuh. And yet it keeps on growing. Even in the 52 year old US market sales are up the past 2 years.

As one person put it on one of the sites: "even a scam can be successful (at least for a time) when it's time has come."

Ultimately ALL MLMs must fail...it's built into the MLM concept:

http://www.vandruff.com/mlm.html

 

[icerat]

Directly contradicted by the experiences of people who have attended the seminars, parties, etc, such as Mr Glasser

Russell Glasser has never attended a meeting run by Amway. He attended a couple of info meetings run either by independent Amway reps or one of the multitude of other companies that offer support services to Amway reps.

The information is available (with original source citations) for all to see.

The opinions sure are. And they don't even say what you claim.

Since he's specifically talking about Amway...looks like you've just been exposed again with a significant untruth.

No, he's not talking about Amway. These "systems" are offered by other companies, and there are many of them. I bought a book recently on googleads. It has a "system" for improving revenues through googleads. I didn't buy it from google and it's not google promoting the system.

After some scrambling by Amway to make it look like they were at least trying to fix things to resemble compliance with the law, the Judge considered the suit redundant. Hardly a stunning testimonial to Amway's business ethics.

Yes, Amway made lots of changes. As the judge pointed out, BERR failed to clearly point out what their concerns where. Amway, in desperation, made a whole heap of changes basically trying to guess the problem. They did however fully admit to not properly monitoring the field, something I've also been critical of them.

The judge also *explictly* stated he would have dismissed the case even without the changes Amway made. This was further confirmed in the appeal judgement, so your claim it was dismissed because of the changes in outright false.

again from the site:

Yes, Amway offered a voicemail system for a while. I don't think they do any more. They also sold bomb shelters. What's your point? Nothing else Joecool mentions did he buy from Amway.

Note the bolded. Joe is speaking from direct experience, just as Mr Glasser does on HIS page about what he experienced while undergoing "recruitment" by Amway.

Glasser wasn't recruited by Amway. I doubt Joecool went to a single Amway meeting or had much communication at all with Amway. Why don't you ask him how many meetings he went to that were run by Amway? Let me know what he says, he's on my ignore list so I don't see his posts.

Sold initially by Amway Motivational Organizations, deliberately kept legally separate from Amway itself to ensure Amway has "clean hands".

Huh? "Deliberately kept legally separate"? How the heck does that work? There are literally dozens of these companies. Until recently (when Amway implemented an accreditation system) they had no legal, contractualy, or other relationship with Amway Corp. You can start one up tomorrow if you want.

It's a neat little trick, but one that shouldn't fool anyone for one minute: those third parties' materials were originally sold TO Amway reps AS PART OF Amway's training and support system.

Completely and utterly false.

Translation: they got too greedy and got caught. Amway "disavowed" them to protect itself.

Again, completely and utterly false. In fact Amway tried to take them over in the early 80s and got in to all sorts of legal and financial strife, an issue that is well covered in various independent histories. They have in recent years implemented some controls on them through an accreditation system. As I said, you can start a company targeting products and services to Amway distributors tomorrow if you want. There's nothing Amway can do to stop you they have no control over that at all.

See above.

See what above - your continued ignorance of how the model works?

Mr Glasser did not "belive myths", he reported what actually happened to him as a prospective Amway rep under recruitment. He was lucky enough to spot the trap, and smart enough to document it.

You seem to not even grasp that (with a few minor exceptions) Amway does not recruit distributors. That's done by independent field agents and they operate in a whole multitude of different ways. Some of them (suprise!) even break Amway's own rules in doing so.

I'd venture to suggest Glasser has had little to no contact with Amway at all, merely an extremely small percentage of Amway reps, an extremely non-homogenous group.

As one person put it on one of the sites: "even a scam can be successful (at least for a time) when it's time has come."

Ultimately ALL MLMs must fail...it's built into the MLM concept:

http://www.vandruff.com/mlm.html

Which just proves my point. You believe Amway to be a pyramid and thus assign the flaws of a pyramid to Amway. You then filter all information through that false lens.

Len Clements does a very thorough debunking of Van Druff on his site.

Citing Van Druff in a discussion on MLM is virtually a "Godwin's law" move. It's an admission you have no idea at all what you're talking about.

 

[Joecool]

Glasser wasn't recruited by Amway. I doubt Joecool went to a single Amway meeting or had much communication at all with Amway. Why don't you ask him how many meetings he went to that were run by Amway? Let me know what he says, he's on my ignore list so I don't see his posts.

In addition to the many scam meetings I attended that were run by WWDB, I also attended Amway meetings. Nutrilite and Artistry clinics and such.

They in my opinion, were useless and made money for Amway and WWDB. Although I believe the WWDB meetings were more of a scam because they charged a lot more. The actual Amway run meetings costed about $12 to attend.

 

[Joecool]

Yes, Amway offered a voicemail system for a while. I don't think they do any more. They also sold bomb shelters. What's your point? Nothing else Joecool mentions did he buy from Amway.

Amway still has a voicemail system for IBOs that offers PV/BV. Uplines don't use it because they make more profit on systems such as KATE. So much for the fierce product loyalty taught by upline leaders. By the way, does anyone really need voicemail these days?

 

[NewtonTrino]

Amway still has a voicemail system for IBOs that offers PV/BV. Uplines don't use it because they make more profit on systems such as KATE. So much for the fierce product loyalty taught by upline leaders. By the way, does anyone really need voicemail these days?

In fact they don't. On top of that though there is the issue of the CD's themselves. These could easily be distributed for free using the net if it was important information that people needed to know. Back in the old days they at least had the excuse that it costs money to duplicate tapes. Now it can be done for very close to free. Why are they charging $8-10 a CD when they could be distributing the same info for free over the net? Simple, because they make a big chunk of their profit from selling this crap to their downline.

 

[Muldur]

Russell Glasser has never attended a meeting run by Amway. He attended a couple of info meetings run either by independent Amway reps or one of the multitude of other companies that offer support services to Amway reps.

And here we see exactly why Amway goes the "independent contractor" or "third party" route with AMOs, and distributers. Any time they get caught out of bounds, Amway can simply disavow them and thus keep it's hands clean.

No, he's not talking about Amway. These "systems" are offered by other companies, and there are many of them. I bought a book recently on googleads. It has a "system" for improving revenues through googleads. I didn't buy it from google and it's not google promoting the system.

More "independent contractor"/"third party" nonsense.

Yes, Amway offered a voicemail system for a while. I don't think they do any more. They also sold bomb shelters. What's your point? Nothing else Joecool mentions did he buy from Amway.

And again referencing the legal fiction of "independent contractors"/"third parties"

Glasser wasn't recruited by Amway.

They were Amway reps, recruiting people to sell FOR Amway. They used Amway training materials and methods.

Therefore they WERE Amway recruiters. Only the IC/TP fiction keeps Amway from legal liability for the end results.

I doubt Joecool went to a single Amway meeting or had much communication at all with Amway. Why don't you ask him how many meetings he went to that were run by Amway? Let me know what he says, he's on my ignore list so I don't see his posts.

Joe's response (since you won't see it otherwise)

In addition to the many scam meetings I attended that were run by WWDB, I also attended Amway meetings. Nutrilite and Artistry clinics and such.

They in my opinion, were useless and made money for Amway and WWDB. Although I believe the WWDB meetings were more of a scam because they charged a lot more. The actual Amway run meetings costed about $12 to attend.

Which by the way, I note your Ignoring of Joe to be entirely consistent with the Amway philosophy of "eliminating negative influences" as taught at their parties and seminars.

In reality, this is a mind-control technique designed to insulate cult members from any influence that challenges the group "party line". Inductees are taught that listening to anything that contradicts what the leadership is saying may/will have negative consequences, and therefore it is best to never expose yourself to those "negative influences".

How does it feel, Icerat, to be shilling for an organization that operates like a cult?

Huh? "Deliberately kept legally separate"? How the heck does that work? There are literally dozens of these companies. Until recently (when Amway implemented an accreditation system) they had no legal, contractualy, or other relationship with Amway Corp. You can start one up tomorrow if you want.

The same way it operated for Enron, for example. On paper and "legally" separate operations that still performed as part of one whole company.

Historical note: This is one of the reasons that prior to the "fictive person" precedent, corporations were forbidden to have interlocking boards of directors (a person could only sit on ONE board at a time). This was intended to (and did) prevent collusion between corporations that were supposed to operate as entirely independent entities.

You seem to not even grasp that (with a few minor exceptions) Amway does not recruit distributors. That's done by independent field agents and they operate in a whole multitude of different ways. Some of them (suprise!) even break Amway's own rules in doing so.

AANNND back to the IC/TP BS.

I'd venture to suggest Glasser has had little to no contact with Amway at all, merely an extremely small percentage of Amway reps, an extremely non-homogenous group.

And yet more IC/TP along with the behavioral modification trick of assigning anything bad that happens to "the other", to the "outsider". The group can do no wrong...

Which just proves my point. You believe Amway to be a pyramid and thus assign the flaws of a pyramid to Amway. You then filter all information through that false lens.

You have that exactly backwards: I see that Amway HAS all the flaws of a pyramid, and thus assign it the (correct) label OF "pyramid". The only one "filtering information" is YOU, Icerat, filtering everything through the lens of the Amway Perspective.

Len Clements does a very thorough debunking of Van Druff on his site.

You mean THIS Len Clements? The Len Clements who is up to his eyeballs IN MLM and MLM advocacy?

http://www.marketwaveinc.com/about.asp

Citing Van Druff in a discussion on MLM is virtually a "Godwin's law" move. It's an admission you have no idea at all what you're talking about.

Van Druff's information stands on it's own merits...

However, if you want to pull a Godwin, or in this case an inverse Godwin, by all means keep mentioning Clements...which is akin to asking a Neo-Nazi to fairly and objectively evaluate accounts of the Holocaust.

 

[icerat]

And here we see exactly why Amway goes the "independent contractor" or "third party" route with AMOs, and distributers. Any time they get caught out of bounds, Amway can simply disavow them and thus keep it's hands clean.

Well that can't entirely do that, but yes it's part of the attraction of the model. Also a part of the weakness of the model.

More "independent contractor"/"third party" nonsense.

Right, so when I bought "tools" for my Amway group through Amazon.com it was simply "independent contractor"/"third party" nonsense

And again referencing the legal fiction of "independent contractors"/"third parties"

Legal fiction? Clearly you're as ignorant of law as you are of business.

They were Amway reps, recruiting people to sell FOR Amway. They used Amway training materials and methods.

Any evidence at all to support that? While there are some Amway materials and contractual obligations, most people are trained by their upline and 3rd party companies, and use upline and 3rd party materials and methods, not "Amway training materials and methods". This is again one of the strengths and weaknesses of the model. It's a strength because it allows innovation and independence. It's a weakness because problems can occur if it's not properly monitored, and Amway Corp has certainly been guilty of the latter.

Therefore they WERE Amway recruiters. Only the IC/TP fiction keeps Amway from legal liability for the end results.

Except it doesn't, as was made clear in BERR vs Amway UK and has been made clear in various US MLM related cases.

Joe's response (since you won't see it otherwise)

So he went to some training on products. Not on "recruiting methods"

Which by the way, I note your Ignoring of Joe to be entirely consistent with the Amway philosophy of "eliminating negative influences" as taught at their parties and seminars.

No, it's part of the sensible netizen philosophy of ignoring trolls.

In reality, this is a mind-control technique designed to insulate cult members from any influence that challenges the group "party line". Inductees are taught that listening to anything that contradicts what the leadership is saying may/will have negative consequences, and therefore it is best to never expose yourself to those "negative influences".

Oh good grief, you've fallen for the anti-mlm zealot propoganda hook, line, and sinker haven't you.

Never expose yourself to those "negative influences"! Oh, and btw, go out and talk to everyone you know!

How does it feel, Icerat, to be shilling for an organization that operates like a cult?

Right, so now you're ignorant on business, law, MLMs, psychology and cults. You are aware that "mind control" was a myth created by the CIA to explain the behaviour of American prisoners of war during the Korean conflict? It's been well studied in the scientific literature.

Oh, and before you bother citing him, that would be the scientific literature that the likes of "cult expert" Steven Hassan didn't study while getting his "Masters" through a distance course from a known degree mill.

The same way it operated for Enron, for example. On paper and "legally" separate operations that still performed as part of one whole company.

Historical note: This is one of the reasons that prior to the "fictive person" precedent, corporations were forbidden to have interlocking boards of directors (a person could only sit on ONE board at a time). This was intended to (and did) prevent collusion between corporations that were supposed to operate as entirely independent entities.

I get it, since I bought stuff from amazon.com to use in my amway group, that means Amazon is also part of the conspiracy. (btw, did you know the top leadership are 8 foot reptiles?)

AANNND back to the IC/TP BS.

Yeah, those damn facts just keep getting in your way, dont though?

And yet more IC/TP along with the behavioral modification trick of assigning anything bad that happens to "the other", to the "outsider". The group can do no wrong...

There is no "the group". Failure to grasp even that basic concept renders your entire thought processing on this topic defunct.

You have that exactly backwards: I see that Amway HAS all the flaws of a pyramid, and thus assign it the (correct) label OF "pyramid". The only one "filtering information" is YOU, Icerat, filtering everything through the lens of the Amway Perspective.

Yup, and you've seem through the fog but the courts and governments of 80+ countries over 52 years have been tricked! Muldur has the truth! I want to believe!

Who was in the cult again?

You mean THIS Len Clements? The Len Clements who is up to his eyeballs IN MLM and MLM advocacy?

Ever heard of Rule 12? But I'm well familiar with the "logic" of the anti-mlm zealot. "Anyone who supports MLM is by definition wrong".

I'll repeat what Professor Dominique Xardel said after spending several years researching Amway -

Amway Corporation has succeeded for more than three decades in a highly regulated industry, because it is a proper, ethical, and honourable addition to the retail marketplace

Van Druff's information stands on it's own merits...

You mean collapses under the weight of error and hubris.

So you can't dispute what Clements says huh?

 

[Muldur]

Well that can't entirely do that, but yes it's part of the attraction of the model.

Previously you said it wasn't at all...blown your own cover once again, Icerat.

Right, so when I bought "tools" for my Amway group through Amazon.com it was simply "independent contractor"/"third party" nonsense

They were bought at the behest of Amway for the purpose of inculcating the Amway method and philosophy, so they were Amway's products regardless of who did the actual order processing and shipping.

Legal fiction? Clearly you're as ignorant of law as you are of business.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/334854/legal-fiction

egal fiction, a rule assuming as true something that is clearly false. A fiction is often used to get around the provisions of constitutions and legal codes that legislators are hesitant to change or to encumber with specific limitations. Thus, when a legislature has no legal power to sit beyond a certain midnight but has five hours more of work still to do, it is easier to turn back the official clock from time to time than it is to change the law or constitution.

In ancient Rome, where every family needed a male heir, the lack of one was overcome through the legal fiction of adoption. In England, when courts handling civil cases were full, the Court of Queen’s (or King’s) Bench, a criminal court, could take some of the load by pretending that the defendant in a simple civil suit had been arrested and was in custody.

Almost any legal fiction can be stated in terms of fact. Thus, the fiction that a corporation is, for many purposes, a person separate from its members is equivalent to saying that, for those purposes, the law deals with the group as a unit, disregarding for the moment the group’s individual members as such.

In this case the "legal fiction" is that the AMOs are "independent" companies which allows Amway to disavow them when they get caught pyramiding their motivationals and using cult brainwashing techniques at Amway's behest.

Any evidence at all to support that? While there are some Amway materials and contractual obligations, most people are trained by their upline and 3rd party companies, and use upline and 3rd party materials and methods, not "Amway training materials and methods". This is again one of the strengths and weaknesses of the model. It's a strength because it allows innovation and independence. It's a weakness because problems can occur if it's not properly monitored, and Amway Corp has certainly been guilty of the latter.

And right back to the IC/TP legal fiction you go. AMWAY never did this. AMWAY never did that. It was "the others" who did that (at Amway's behest for Amway's benefit).

Except it doesn't, as was made clear in BERR vs Amway UK and has been made clear in various US MLM related cases.

Courts have made all kinds of screwy, inappropriate or just plain WRONG rulings many times in history.

Oh good grief, you've fallen for the anti-mlm zealot propoganda hook, line, and sinker haven't you.

No, I've seen through MLM propaganda and know it as the fraud that it is.



Ever heard of Rule 12?[/quote]

You can't evaluate the claims of a person w/o considering his bona fides. In this case Clements is up to his eyeballs in MLM as both a proponent AND a business owner.

He has no objectivity on the topic, a financial interest in seeing MLM continue, and therefore less than zero credibility in his defense of MLM.

But I'm well familiar with the "logic" of the anti-mlm zealot. "Anyone who supports MLM is by definition wrong".

We're not talking about "anyone"...we're talking about a guy who makes his living as an OWNER of a MLM, and defending MLMs in court.

In other words, a MLM Zealot.

 

[xjx388]

OK, some questions I have about the Amway Org, assuming I were an IBO:

A. If I truly operate an independent business and would truly make the bulk of my money by selling products to consumers:

1. Why am I not allowed to advertise my business?
2. Why am I not allowed to sell the products through traditional retail outlets?
3. Why is there so much emphasis on recruiting others to, in effect, compete with my own sales?

B. According to Amway's own literature, the average monthly income for an "active" IBO is $115. Additionally, less than 1% of IBOs make any significant money (over $12,303 at the gold level).
1. How can you square these numbers with the marketing claims made in that brochure:
"The ability to earn income to supplement, replace, and sometimes even exceed current earnings."
"Flexible schedules that allow them to do the things they want."
"The satisfaction of building a better life for their families
and themselves."
2. If the only way to achieve gold level and above is to recruit others (because, honestly, who is going to sell 7500 PV on their own without advertising or traditional retail sales?) isn't this the very definition of a pyramid scheme?

 

[icerat]

Previously you said it wasn't at all...blown your own cover once again, Icerat.

Never said that

They were bought at the behest of Amway for the purpose of inculcating the Amway method and philosophy, so they were Amway's products regardless of who did the actual order processing and shipping.

Do you even think about this stuff before you randomly make it up? I read a book I think would be useful for my group, find the best deal at Amazon and offer it to my group. Not made by Amway, not ordered by or from Amway, not shipped by Amway. Amway knows nothing at all about the transaction and has no involvement at all with it.

But it's an "Amway product".

Good grief

In this case the "legal fiction" is that the AMOs are "independent" companies which allows Amway to disavow them when they get caught pyramiding their motivationals and using cult brainwashing techniques at Amway's behest.

Try just looking up "fiction" - that's what most of what you are writing is.

And right back to the IC/TP legal fiction you go. AMWAY never did this. AMWAY never did that. It was "the others" who did that (at Amway's behest for Amway's benefit).

Again, Amway knows nothing about something, no input at all, and much of the time suffers because of it (through reputation damage), and it's at Amway's behest?

Courts have made all kinds of screwy, inappropriate or just plain WRONG rulings many times in history.

Yes, only Muldur is holder of the secret truth!

No, I've seen through MLM propaganda and know it as the fraud that it is.

Muldur knows all! The experts have been fooled!

You can't evaluate the claims of a person w/o considering his bona fides. In this case Clements is up to his eyeballs in MLM as both a proponent AND a business owner.

He only recent became a business owner again, after working solely as a consultant for many years.

But yes, you're right. His bona fides should be considered, and his wide experience and knowledge of the field certainly speaks well.

He has no objectivity on the topic, a financial interest in seeing MLM continue, and therefore less than zero credibility in his defense of MLM.

Apparently you're not familiar with Rule 12. But then he's not debating here is he? So you don't have to actually address the argument? He's an MLM supporter therefore he should be instantly dismissed.

We're not talking about "anyone"...we're talking about a guy who makes his living as an OWNER of a MLM, and defending MLMs in court.

In other words, a MLM Zealot.

Well yes, courts have certified him as an expert. Clearly he can't be trusted. Still, I won't entirely disagree with that. Courts have certified all sorts of idiots as supposed experts.

Which is why you should address the argument, not the arguer, which you appear to be avoiding as best you can. Why is that?

 

[icerat]

OK, some questions I have about the Amway Org, assuming I were an IBO:

A. If I truly operate an independent business and would truly make the bulk of my money by selling products to consumers:

1. Why am I not allowed to advertise my business?

Different companies have different rules on this, but most of them do allow you to advertise, however they have various rules you need to follow and get the copy approved.

You are "independent" in the sense you work when you want, how you want, for whatever goals you want. You do however have contractual obligations. This is not unusual in business. Even someone "independently" publishing google ads on a website has google rules to follow. Even someone who owns a shop has tenancy rules to follow, and various government regulations.

So it really depends how you want to define "truly independent" and where you put the cutoff. It's a sliding scale.

2. Why am I not allowed to sell the products through traditional retail outlets?

Again, depends on the company but often times you can, again within regulation. The main reason is because it doesn't work. A product that can simply sit on a shelf and attract buyers doesn't need a person to market it. Legitimate products marketed through MLM normally have some feature that differentiates them from competition and needs explaining. That's what the agent is for. Sticking them on a shelf hoping for an easy sell is a short track for a company having to deal with large numbers of returns. As Rich DeVos put it, the model is about taking the product to the consumer, not the consumer to the product.

3. Why is there so much emphasis on recruiting others to, in effect, compete with my own sales?

Well, it's not really competing with your own sales. It is in one sense, but in the same sense if you own a clothing store and work their alone, then hire someone to work with you, they are competing with you, costing you money. The hope of course is that even though your margins are down, it will be made up for with increased volume. Larger volumes of wholesale sales at a lower margin can result in higher profit than small volumes of retail sales at a higher margin.

Some people in MLM work on attracting customers and then converting those who are interested into agents. Others work on attracting agents and converting those who are not interested in to customers. Then there are approaches everywhere in between - and it varies even within companies as well.

Remember, recruiting an agent is recruiting a customer, a wholesale customer.

B. According to Amway's own literature, the average monthly income for an "active" IBO is $115. Additionally, less than 1% of IBOs make any significant money (over $12,303 at the gold level).
1. How can you square these numbers with the marketing claims made in that brochure:
"The ability to earn income to supplement, replace, and sometimes even exceed current earnings."

I'm not sure what needs squaring? The same document also shows people earning millions. Make sure you note what's required to be considered "active" and included in that average. If you do nothing more than buy stuff for your own use and buy enough one month to get a rebate, your considered "active". If you're sitting on the sofa and your brother walks in and you say "wanna buy an XS?" and he says "no" - you're considered active.

$115/mth is pretty good for that kind of effort, don't you think? Amway IBOs get all their products free plus extra cash covers the use and misuse of this statistic.

"Flexible schedules that allow them to do the things they want."
"The satisfaction of building a better life for their families
and themselves."
2. If the only way to achieve gold level and above is to recruit others (because, honestly, who is going to sell 7500 PV on their own without advertising or traditional retail sales?) isn't this the very definition of a pyramid scheme?

(1) the sine qua non of a pyramid scheme, it's essence, is that your get paid for recruiting people. That doesn't happen in Amway or legitimate MLMs. Recruit a million people and no products get sold, nobody makes a cent.
(2) I know people who sell 7500PV regularly without advertising or "traditional" retail sales. It's hard work, but so is traditional retail sales. So no, recruiting is not the only way to achieve "gold".
(3) Pick any business, if you want to free up time for yourself then you eventually have to replace yourself in the business.

 

[gnome]

On (1) above... what about recruit a million people who only buy for themselves, what happens?

 

[icerat]

On (1) above... what about recruit a million people who only buy for themselves, what happens?

You've recruited a million retail customers, you'll be extremely wealthy.

Now, if you're instead talking about developing a network that together recruits a million people who only buy for themselves , profit shares it, and are all trying to make money by recruiting others, that's a different story. My analysis of that model (BTYTODS - by from yourself teach others to do the same) is that there's nothing illegal about it, but it is against Amway's rules.

Throw in the reality that the vast majority of those recruited will not try to make money (even if they may have initially joined for that reason), you still have a problem with overall profitability being significantly lower, often to the extent that it makes it not a worthwhile business opportunity - too little profit spread over too few people. That's fine as a "buyer's club", but lousy business opportunity for most people.

 

[Joecool]

[I'm not sure what needs squaring? The same document also shows people earning millions. Make sure you note what's required to be considered "active" and included in that average. If you do nothing more than buy stuff for your own use and buy enough one month to get a rebate, your considered "active". If you're sitting on the sofa and your brother walks in and you say "wanna buy an XS?" and he says "no" - you're considered active.

$115/mth is pretty good for that kind of effort, don't you think?

It's extremely important to note that in deriving that $115 average, Amway disregarded "inactive" distributors. Icerat claims that nearly all IBOs "do nothing". Thus the true average might be $15 a month (gross).

Also, important to note, that Icerat's example is completely false. In order for an IBO to earn a commission, that IBO must move a minimum of 100 PV, which currently costs about $300.

Yes, Amway's a great business. You work as an unpaid salesperson. Move product at your own time and expense, and your upline get about 90% of the bonus you generated. Oh, and they sell you tools so you can learn what a great deal this is. How can anyone possibly beat that deal?

In a series I wrote on my blog, I had several ways of faring better financially than Amway. Doing nothing and watching TV, pandhandling, working for minimum wage, exercising and looking for spare change - all much more lucrative than the Amway opportunity.

 

[xjx388]

Different companies have different rules on this, but most of them do allow you to advertise, however they have various rules you need to follow and get the copy approved.

Amway does not allow you to advertise your business, period. Why not?

You are "independent" in the sense you work when you want, how you want, for whatever goals you want. You do however have contractual obligations. This is not unusual in business. Even someone "independently" publishing google ads on a website has google rules to follow. Even someone who owns a shop has tenancy rules to follow, and various government regulations.

I think it says a lot about Amway that they contractually forbid you from selling in a retail establishment. The only way you are allowed to sell is by personal contact. Why is this?

Again, depends on the company but often times you can, again within regulation. The main reason is because it doesn't work. A product that can simply sit on a shelf and attract buyers doesn't need a person to market it.

Traditional retail sales don't work?!? I co-own a shop for almost 10 years where that's ALL we do. Of course, the products don't just sit on a shelf. We advertise like crazy and help our customers when they come through the door. Amway expressly forbids this, even though it is the most profitable way to operate. Why?

Legitimate products marketed through MLM normally have some feature that differentiates them from competition and needs explaining. That's what the agent is for. Sticking them on a shelf hoping for an easy sell is a short track for a company having to deal with large numbers of returns.

Oh, come on now. I don't buy this at all. What is so special about Amway's dish soap, detergent, vitamins or make-up that needs explaining? There is absolutely nothing special about them that you couldn't find in a retail store right now.

As Rich DeVos put it, the model is about taking the product to the consumer, not the consumer to the product.

If the products are so great, there would be consumer demand for them. The best way to meet that demand would be through mass market sales. Perhaps the real reason that Amway contractually forbids retail sales is that it's products couldn't compete with what's already available on the retail market. It's as good an explanation as any.

Well, it's not really competing with your own sales. It is in one sense, but in the same sense if you own a clothing store and work their alone, then hire someone to work with you, they are competing with you, costing you money. The hope of course is that even though your margins are down, it will be made up for with increased volume. Larger volumes of wholesale sales at a lower margin can result in higher profit than small volumes of retail sales at a higher margin.

If I own a shop and hire someone to work for me, they are not competing with me in any sense of the word. They are employees who's job it is to make me money. If that employee opens a store that sells the same stuff I do, THEN he's competing with me. That's what Amway does. How long can this continue until the market is saturated? How many "Fancy Soap" shops can there be?

Some people in MLM work on attracting customers and then converting those who are interested into agents. Others work on attracting agents and converting those who are not interested in to customers. Then there are approaches everywhere in between - and it varies even within companies as well.

This is key: no one in MLM focuses only on selling products. Making any real money requires you to recruit in one way or another. This is made plain in Amway's own Business Reference Guide. Please don't tell me that there are people who make it to Gold or above SOLELY by selling products.

Remember, recruiting an agent is recruiting a customer, a wholesale customer.

So I'm a distributor for my friend who is a distributor to his friend who is a distributor to . . . . where are the consumers? Are they also the distributors? What about the last guy in the chain? The top guys are making all the money and the last guys in the chain get screwed. That's what a pyramid is.

I'm not sure what needs squaring? The same document also shows people earning millions.

What percentage of people who are active IBOs makes $0? What percentage makes millions? What needs squaring is the reality that Amway does not provide a realistic chance of achieving independence from a job and providing security for a family like the brochure makes it seem.

Make sure you note what's required to be considered "active" and included in that average. If you do nothing more than buy stuff for your own use and buy enough one month to get a rebate, your considered "active". If you're sitting on the sofa and your brother walks in and you say "wanna buy an XS?" and he says "no" - you're considered active.

So there are a considerable amount of people who are considered "active" who make nothing and there are just a handful of people who make millions. This is important to note, as I will illustrate.

$115/mth is pretty good for that kind of effort, don't you think? Amway IBOs get all their products free plus extra cash covers the use and misuse of this statistic.

So, for simplicity's sake, let's say there are 10000 "active" IBOs and 9998 of them make $0 and 2 of them make $1,000,000 each. This means that the "average" active IBO makes $200. This "average" is meaningless because the reality is that only two people in the organization make any money at all. This is pretty analogous to what happens in the Amway scheme.

(1) the sine qua non of a pyramid scheme, it's essence, is that your get paid for recruiting people. That doesn't happen in Amway or legitimate MLMs. Recruit a million people and no products get sold, nobody makes a cent.

No. A pyramid scheme means the people at the top profit off of the people at the bottom, who don't actually have a chance to ever make the big money.

(2) I know people who sell 7500PV regularly without advertising or "traditional" retail sales. It's hard work, but so is traditional retail sales. So no, recruiting is not the only way to achieve "gold".

I don't believe you. You'll have to produce evidence.

(3) Pick any business, if you want to free up time for yourself then you eventually have to replace yourself in the business.

True. But IBOs are not "businesses."

 

[Muldur]

Never said that

Let's review:

Icerat said

Muder said:

Icerat said

Russell Glasser has never attended a meeting run by Amway. He attended a couple of info meetings run either by independent Amway reps or one of the multitude of other companies that offer support services to Amway reps.

And here we see exactly why Amway goes the "independent contractor" or "third party" route with AMOs, and distributers. Any time they get caught out of bounds, Amway can simply disavow them and thus keep it's hands clean.

Well that can't entirely do that, but yes it's part of the attraction of the model.

[emhasis added]

So now you do indeed indeed admit that selling motivationals, etc was an important part of the upline's business after previously (in multiple posts) insisted that Amway was all about the retail products (soaps, etc), and that the motivationals were all "third party" and not a part of the Amway Method.

Caught red handed, Icerat.

Do you even think about this stuff before you randomly make it up? I read a book I think would be useful for my group, find the best deal at Amazon and offer it to my group. Not made by Amway, not ordered by or from Amway, not shipped by Amway. Amway knows nothing at all about the transaction and has no involvement at all with it.

There's that legal fiction again...directly contradicted by multiple independent testimonies as to the reality of the AMOs and their tight association with Amway:

http://www.amazon.com/Amway-Motivational-Organizations-Behind-Mirrors/dp/0967107024

http://freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/a/amway/

http://mlmsurvivor.com/amway-motivational-organizations-book-sale/

Just three links easily found via Yahoo search.

But it's an "Amway product".

Good grief

If it's done FOR Amway AT Amways request and to SUPPORT Amway, then it's Amway's product, the legal fiction of "third party" notwithstanding.

Try just looking up "fiction" - that's what most of what you are writing is.

No, that would be you. Everyone else well understands exactly what I'm saying and the truth of it.

Again, Amway knows nothing about something, no input at all, and much of the time suffers because of it (through reputation damage), and it's at Amway's behest?

They SAY they know nothing about it, etc, and cite the legal fiction of the "third party" company, but those who have been subjected to it (such as Mr Glasser, etc) have testified that it was abundantly clear that these "third party" materials were part and parcel of the Amway Method, and of the upline's profitability.

That they take hits when someone gets caught with their proverbial hand in the cookie jar and take a hit that they mitigate by throwing the "third party" under the bus is only partial justice.

Yes, only Muldur is holder of the secret truth!

A simple Yahoo search brings up dozens and dozens of websites, book citiations and resources about the truth behind Amway. I'm hardly alone, and the truth is hardly "secret".

Muldur knows all! The experts have been fooled!

The experts have NOT been fooled. Hence all the expose sites about Amway. The courts can only operate within the confines of the laws as written, unfortunately, and so long as Amway continues to play it smart and use "third persons" and "IBOs" as cutouts, there's unfortunately little the law can do on it's own.

It's up to us, the citizens, to demand laws be drafted to outlaw MLM entirely and in all forms.

He only recent became a business owner again, after working solely as a consultant for many years.

A consultant for MLM about MLM and promoting MLM.

But yes, you're right. His bona fides should be considered, and his wide experience and knowledge of the field certainly speaks well.

No, it exposes him as a shill for MLM, a pro-MLM zealot with less than no credibility.

Apparently you're not familiar with Rule 12.

Doesn't apply. I'm not making extraneous attacks on the PERSON. I'm accurately challenging his credentials and therefore the validity of his argument.

But then he's not debating here is he?

Doesn't matter if he were, I'd still call him on the fact that his "credentials" mark him irrevocably as a MLM shill.

So you don't have to actually address the argument?

No need for me to do (again) what so many others have already done.

Which is why you should address the argument, not the arguer, which you appear to be avoiding as best you can. Why is that?

See above.

 

[Muldur]

Again, depends on the company but often times you can, again within regulation. The main reason is because it doesn't work. A product that can simply sit on a shelf and attract buyers doesn't need a person to market it. Legitimate products marketed through MLM normally have some feature that differentiates them from competition and needs explaining.

Funny, just about everything I've ever heard of Amway selling (soaps, cleaners, cosmetics, vitamins, et al) is sold "simply sitting on the shelf" by retailers all the time.

So what's so "special" about Amway soaps, etc that it CAN'T be sold straight retail?

You know and I know, Icerat, that the "products" are there to keep the law at bay while Amway rakes in the dough selling Amway and all it's self-promoting "motivationals" and seminars, etc.