Is alcoholism a disease or something else?

[littleroundman]

According to your link, diabetes consists of Type I, Type II, and gestational; "pre-diabetes" is related to but is not diabetes; "metabolic syndrome" is not diabetes, it includes insulin resistence with additional conditions. The treatment of diabetes, whether with insulin, medicine, or lifestyle changes, is for the purpose of regulating blood glucose levels. Is it not true, however, that for all these forms of diabetes there is no cure; that management of the disease (i.e., regulation of blood glucose) is the goal? Which was the point of using diabetes as a comparison to alcoholism.

Fortunately, the ability of random posters on internet forums to Google up semantic arguments to prove or disprove their uninformed views has no bearing on the relity/ies faced by the increasing numbers of those afflicted with the condition so often referred to as "diabetes"

In fact, in a strangely synchronistic way, your "understanding" or rather lack of "understanding" of "diabetes" its' diagnosis, treatment and consequences only serves to reinforce the fact that "alcoholism" as a discrete, single condition, does not, in fact, exist.

i.e. SOME forms of Type 2 diabetes can be controlled and, in fact, reversed by lifestyle changes.

NOT ALL cases of type 2 diabetes are lifestyle related, a large proportion, maybe. But definitely not ALL instances of type 2 diabetes are linked to diet and/or obesity. Similarly, type 2 diabetes is most often "adult onset" HOWEVER, it is not ALWAYS confined to adults, unfortunately there are an increasingly large amount of pre-teen cases of type 2 diabetes being diagnosed.
Likewise, there are a large number of otherwise fit, healthy non obese people with "type 2 diabetes"
SOME cases of "type 2 diabetes" can be treated with oral medications, while SOME cases of "type 2 diabetes" require insulin injections.

Someone who has had his or her pancreas removed or damaged can be "diabetic" without having "diabetes"

Rest assured, while the "diabetes/alcoholism" comparisons and the "alcoholism, disease or not" argument/s may make for interesting debate among posters, those at the pointy end of the debate i.e. those with alcohol related problems and their families and "diabetics" and their parents, friends, families and those charged with the diagnosis, care and treatment of those afflicted with either condition, such comparisons are both pointless and meaningless.

 

[FattyCatty]

Fortunately, the ability of random posters on internet forums to Google up semantic arguments to prove or disprove their uninformed views has no bearing on the relity/ies faced by the increasing numbers of those afflicted with the condition so often referred to as "diabetes"In fact, in a strangely synchronistic way, your "understanding" or rather lack of "understanding" of "diabetes" its' diagnosis, treatment and consequences only serves to reinforce the fact that "alcoholism" as a discrete, single condition, does not, in fact, exist.

i.e. SOME forms of Type 2 diabetes can be controlled and, in fact, reversed by lifestyle changes.

NOT ALL cases of type 2 diabetes are lifestyle related, a large proportion, maybe. But definitely not ALL instances of type 2 diabetes are linked to diet and/or obesity. Similarly, type 2 diabetes is most often "adult onset" HOWEVER, it is not ALWAYS confined to adults, unfortunately there are an increasingly large amount of pre-teen cases of type 2 diabetes being diagnosed.
Likewise, there are a large number of otherwise fit, healthy non obese people with "type 2 diabetes"
SOME cases of "type 2 diabetes" can be treated with oral medications, while SOME cases of "type 2 diabetes" require insulin injections.

Someone who has had his or her pancreas removed or damaged can be "diabetic" without having "diabetes"

Rest assured, while the "diabetes/alcoholism" comparisons and the "alcoholism, disease or not" argument/s may make for interesting debate among posters, those at the pointy end of the debate i.e. those with alcohol related problems and their families and "diabetics" and their parents, friends, families and those charged with the diagnosis, care and treatment of those afflicted with either condition, such comparisons are both pointless and meaningless.

The only thing about diabetes I "Googled up" was the link you provided. What I said about diabetes came from what I learned in the classes I was sent to after I was diagnosed with Type II diabetes. Which is the phraseology my doctor used. I am fully aware that not all Type II diabetes is linked to diet/obesity and that some people are treated with medicine (me, for instance) and others with insulin (my mother, for instance). There are some studies that show that the tendency towards diabetes runs in families, another similiarity to alcohol dependence. I consider myself to be at the "pointy end of the debate" regarding both diabetes and alcohol dependence (my stepbrother drank himself to death in his 30s, getting sicker and sicker, but refusing to stop drinking). By the way, I first heard the comparison of alcoholism (alcohol dependence) to diabetes in one of my diabetes education classes.

 

[littleroundman]

I am most certainly glad you appear to understand the "differences"

HOWEVER, your post/s on serve to affirm my contention that "alcoholism" like "diabetes" is NOT a singular term which can be applied "across the board" to those afflicted with a condition "generally" known as either diabetes OR alcoholism.

Your post, and those of many of the "alcoholism is a choice" posters are filled with words such as "may" and "can" and "like" and "might" and "some" and "not all" and "tendency toward" and "possible" and "similar"

If you and they used expressions such as "a majority" or "a large percentage" or even "most" when expounding a view as to whether or not "alcoholism" is a disease or "alcoholism is like/unlike diabetes" the argument may have some merit.

HOWEVER to point at ANY subgroup of citizens numbering upward of 10 MILLION i.e. the estimated number of people in the USA with alcohol related problems, and declare all 10 million+ peoples' situation is the same is nonsensical.

In fact, such broad brush statements are the very opposite of the critical thinking abilities so cherished by "skeptics"

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

I am most certainly glad you appear to understand the "differences"

HOWEVER, your post/s on serve to affirm my contention that "alcoholism" like "diabetes" is NOT a singular term which can be applied "across the board" to those afflicted with a condition "generally" known as either diabetes OR alcoholism.

Your post, and those of many of the "alcoholism is a choice" posters are filled with words such as "may" and "can" and "like" and "might" and "some" and "not all" and "tendency toward" and "possible" and "similar"

If you and they used expressions such as "a majority" or "a large percentage" or even "most" when expounding a view as to whether or not "alcoholism" is a disease or "alcoholism is like/unlike diabetes" the argument may have some merit.

HOWEVER to point at ANY subgroup of citizens numbering upward of 10 MILLION i.e. the estimated number of people in the USA with alcohol related problems, and declare all 10 million+ peoples' situation is the same is nonsensical.

In fact, such broad brush statements are the very opposite of the critical thinking abilities so cherished by "skeptics"

This is a point I have been trying to hammer on consistently myself regarding the lumping of all kinds of habituation, self-medication, excessive use, and uncontrollable use under the same rubric "addiction." It makes no sense, and conflates many different issues into one.

GB

 

[littleroundman]

This is a point I have been trying to hammer on consistently myself regarding the lumping of all kinds of habituation, self-medication, excessive use, and uncontrollable use under the same rubric "addiction." It makes no sense, and conflates many different issues into one.

GB

Exactly.

As a side issue and one which brings me to post on such forums as this, such behaviour leads directly to the success of the purveyors of the latest water, pill, potion, natural remedy and downright fraud.

The problem lies not so much with whether or not their c**p works but is rooted in the fact they have no obviously real idea about the condition/s with which they are dealing when they use such singular terms as "cancer" "diabetes" and "alcoholism" and make broad brush statements such as is being done by some posters even here.

Breast cancer is NOT lung cancer, diabetes is NOT just diabetes.

research suggests that smoking CAN contribute to the onset of lung cancer BUT not all smokers contract lung cancer and not all lung cancer patients smoke.

A mental illness is not ALL mental illness, and even the "common cold" is not the "same" in everyone who "has a cold"

"Alcoholism" is not a singular condition, it's simply a convenient word.

The definition of which, BTW, cannot be agreed on by anything but a percentage of those actually "involved"

Similar, maybe, but definitely not exactly the same.

The variations and possible variations within each simplistic definition are endless.

 

[zerospeaks]

"I can see why people get their backs up over the medicalisation of addiction, depression or obesity. Yet, I also note that the medical models can actually offer some kind of program that can be tested against, while Team Willpower doesn't give much more than Nike's "Just Do It" sloganeering. I could be wrong. Can anyone give me a step by step instruction on how to have more willpower?"

HERE HERE!!! This is what the experimental data shows!
Determinism may just be real.

What is pissing me off with this thread is that if I had described my drinking behaviour of a couple of months age to anyone the response would have been "you're an alcoholic". Certainly, that's been my doctor's opinion. But because I've been able to give up without a huge amount of trouble (apart from three or four days of withdrawal), I've magically never been an alcoholic.

HAHA! It's funny because I remember saying the exact same thing last year. To my doctor and wife.... They told me I was still an alcoholic and I should be careful and I laughed at them. After all, it was so easy for me to quit.... Yeah... I currently suck down a case a day. I started my "relapse" last month. I'm now at the "needs medical supervision to come off" stage.

Managing the disease is not curing the disease. If you stop the "management," you go right back into a symptomatic condition and continue the damage to your body.

Truth. Words of wisdom and is backed by the data.

Alcoholism cannot be cured,

CURRENTLY

Rest assured, while the "diabetes/alcoholism" comparisons and the "alcoholism, disease or not" argument/s may make for interesting debate among posters, those at the pointy end of the debate i.e. those with alcohol related problems and their families and "diabetics" and their parents, friends, families and those charged with the diagnosis, care and treatment of those afflicted with either condition, such comparisons are both pointless and meaningless.

My father is diabetic and he manages it better then me or my brother manages our alcoholism.

HOWEVER, your post/s on serve to affirm my contention that "alcoholism" like "diabetes" is NOT a singular term which can be applied "across the board" to those afflicted with a condition "generally" known as either diabetes OR alcoholism.

BUT IS IT A DISEASE? That is the debate.
Animal Research points to yes... according to pretty much every research institution.

 

[littleroundman]

BUT IS IT A DISEASE? That is the debate.
Animal Research points to yes... according to pretty much every research institution.

In SOME cases.

"Points to" and "pretty much" in no way support a definitive yes/no answer.

Just because the OP used the word "OR" doesn't negate the fact it could have read "Is alcoholism a disease AND something else?" in which case the answer is "yes"

 

[Skeptical Greg]

zerospeaks:

BUT IS IT A DISEASE? That is the debate.
Animal Research points to yes... according to pretty much every research institution.

How can animals, who lack the cognitive ability of humans, be reasonably compared to same, when it comes to substance abuse.


I bet if you gave a bunch of rats access to unlimited cheese along with an alternative, and punished them for eating the cheese, some of them would go for the cheese anyway ..


Is cheese addiction a disease ?

 

[23_Tauri]

ETA Sorry, that's a bit snarky. What is pissing me off with this thread is that if I had described my drinking behaviour of a couple of months age to anyone the response would have been "you're an alcoholic". Certainly, that's been my doctor's opinion. But because I've been able to give up without a huge amount of trouble (apart from three or four days of withdrawal), I've magically never been an alcoholic. Sorry, I just don't buy the assertion that if you can give up alcohol without some sort of medical intervention you never had a real addiction problem to begin with.

I'm with you on this point too, LionKing. Just because someone manages to to stop drinking period doesn't mean they're not an alcoholic. It means they're managing their addiction.

I don't often write personal stuff on forums, but because my recent family crisis is so pertinent to this thread, I'll share it with you. My mum, who is 80, has been a lifelong drinker. Despite repeated warnings from her doctors for the last few years she didn't stop drinking the whisky. Last week her liver haemorrhaged and she was rushed to hospital, gravely ill. She is stable and at home now and she is off the alcohol. Ok, it's only been a week but because she's had this wake-up call she vows to stay of the booze for good. As far as I can work out, the doctors have told her that if she keeps drinking her liver will pack up soon. Does that mean she's no longer an alcoholic? Or that she was never an alcoholic? In my opinion, that would be a ridiculous conclusion to arrive at. She's decided that she doesn't want to die quite yet and she's going to do her damndest to hold on for a few more years.

Also, making a distinction between alcoholic and alcohol dependent is semantics, IMO.

 

[zerospeaks]

How can animals, who lack the cognitive ability of humans, be reasonably compared to same, when it comes to substance abuse.

Im not the Neuroscientist my wife is, but I would assume they have protocols in place to test properly. It's not like we just started animal testing yesterday, we have been doing it for a long time and have gotten very good at it.
As my wife said once, "We've come a long way since skinner"

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Ask your wife if she thinks some rats would still go to the cheese after being punished for eating it, and what this might infer ?
Disease ?

I realize there are probably not any grants out there for spending a lot of time on this ...

 

[minus]

(yes, I've been to some court mandated AA meetings for silly reasons in the past)

Many of us would be interested in hearing what those "silly reasons" were. Hmm, let's see, could it be drunk driving, domestic violence, public drunkenness? Those are some of the "silly" reasons people get mandated to AA meetings. All good clean fun. Are there others that I missed? We'd love to hear.

 

[zerospeaks]

My wife sent this to me over an IM. She is in the lab doing research right now so she couldn't go into detail.
She did however seem to be completely annoyed by the question as if it does not pose a problem that hasn't already been answered.

Response to Skeptical Greg

How can animals, who lack the cognitive ability of humans, be reasonably compared to same, when it comes to substance abuse.
first, humans are animals too
second, OBVIOUSLY they do not have the same cognitive abilities as us
although addictive behavior doesn't really require any higher order cognitive abilities
plus, we use non-human animal models because they have similar brain structures (albeit more simple) and similar neurochemical processes, etc., so they provide a MODEL for behavior on a more simple scale... since human brains are so very complex anyway.
that's why we start very simple (in terms of neural complexity), for example, drosophila (fruit fly), then mouse, then primate, then humans (for example, a drug trial looking at the ability of a drug, derived from basic research, to reduce addiction or relapse)
duh
man, i hate people.

 

[MikeSun5]

Many of us would be interested in hearing what those "silly reasons" were.

I doubt it. The "interest" is probably just the "us" being nosy, but whatever.

Hmm, let's see, could it be drunk driving, domestic violence, public drunkenness? Those are some of the "silly" reasons people get mandated to AA meetings. All good clean fun. Are there others that I missed? We'd love to hear.

Okay, smarty pants. I'll tell you. Years ago I had marijuana plants growing on my balcony. One fell off, and my downstairs neighbor called the cops. As it was my first offense, I got it knocked down to a disorderly conduct after completing some community service hours and mandatory AA meetings (as opposed to Narcotics Anonymous - I have no idea why).

You know what they say about assuming... you make an ass out of yourself. Or something like that. Nice attempt at saying I'm diseased, though.

 

[zerospeaks]

I've been debating with myself over growing weed in my backyard because I live in a tropical climate and it closed off by high fences and trees.
I don't smoke the stuff, I just want some extra money.

I don't think I will do it though, because if I ever got caught, my wifes job could be put in jeopardy.

Isn't it weird when they can outlaw a plant? It's nature... I don't see them outlawing dandelions.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

My wife sent this to me over an IM. She is in the lab doing research right now so she couldn't go into detail.
She did however seem to be completely annoyed by the question as if it does not pose a problem that hasn't already been answered.

Response to Skeptical Greg

Non answer.. It doesn't explain why alcoholism is a disease ..

It doesn't explain why a disease ( assuming alcoholism is a disease ) requires the afflicted, to ingest something, in order for the ( supposedly ) already present disease, to manifest itself ..

Can you ( or your wife ( I couldn't care less how annoyed she is )) name any other disease that behaves this way ?


I didn't see where you answered if craving cheese is a disease .. Chocolate ?

 

[MikeSun5]

Alcoholism is a disease and it does kill people.

False. Alcoholism doesn't kill anyone. Never has, never will. It leads to diseases that do, but alcoholism can't kill anyone itself.

It kills people in accidents.

Wrong again. Being drunk does. Alcoholics are able to drive sober, and non-alcoholics can get drunk and kill people in accidents.


I'd be willing to change my mind if someone could give me one decent comparison between alcoholism and an actual disease. So far, there have been countless examples provided (from both sides of the argument) of symptoms and traits that are exclusive to alcoholism, but no solid reason as to WHY alcoholism should be a disease when other addictions aren't.

We established early in the thread that it was beneficial to the anti-alcoholism cause to have the medical profession portray it as a disease. FattyCatty can post all the medical journal exerpts in the world (as if that wins the argument), but the simple fact that there IS an argument suggests that the medical field may have jumped the gun on this one. I mean, they've been wrong before. Also, there are plenty of doctors who disagree. So FattyCatty, here is a link for you to read that isn't from a random internet poster. And here's a great quote that is from a random internet poster:

Addiction is not a disease, it is a behavioural response by susceptible individuals to a set of circumstances, usually perceived by that individual to be ones where they feel out of control.

Seconded. By the logic of many posters in this thread, any addiction that has an eventual negative impact on the body can be considered a disease. This logic dictates that all mental disorders must be called diseases as well. So anorexia is a disease now? PTSD? Bullcrap.

There is no consistency among people claiming alcoholism is a disease. If habitually consuming something that can possibly lead to disease on your body is a disease in itself, then smoking cigarettes is a disease. Being addicted to sex is a disease. Eating salt or sugar is a disease.

She did however seem to be completely annoyed by the question as if it does not pose a problem that hasn't already been answered.

She didn't answer the question.

 

[zerospeaks]

It doesn't explain why a disease ( assuming alcoholism is a disease ) requires the afflicted, to ingest something, in order for the already present disease, to manifest itself ..

Can you ( or your wife ( I couldn't care less how annoyed she is )) name any other disease that behaves this way ?

Celiac Disease

Wow, that was easy, and I didn't even need a PhD.

 

[23_Tauri]

And here's a great quote that is from a random internet poster.

Aye up Mike, you calling me random?

 

[zerospeaks]

FattyCatty can post all the medical journal exerpts in the world (as if that wins the argument), but the simple fact that there IS an argument suggests that the medical field may have jumped the gun on this one.

What FattyCatty and my wife (the expert on this subject) is TRYING to tell you is that there is NO argument on this subject.
Not in science.

I wonder, do you also think there is an argument over creationism? Flat-earthism?