Is alcoholism a disease or something else?

Does anybody else remember xjx388 writing what you see below? I had forgotten.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6616172#post6616172
At the most bassic level, things like obesity and drug addiction ARE 100% in our control. Weight-loss and maintenance DOES come down to energy balance in the big scheme of things. No one is disputing these ideas and they certainly aren't original to you. All I'm saying is that it is not equally easy for everyone to lose weight and that there are factors besides energy balance that account for difficulty in losing weight. These are also not new ideas nor are they original to me.
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UncaYimmy said:
Does anybody else remember xjx388 writing what you see below? I had forgotten.
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And you think this catches me on what, now?

You forgot this part:
If I'm ignoring the laws of physics, then you are ignoring the laws of physiology, psychology and hell let's throw in economics too. For instance, one of the studies you cite tells of the importance of autonomous motivation and that it can be taught. OK, so how do you propose this knowledge be passed to Joe Blow, a sedentary 350lb man? Who will pay for it, his insurance . . . him? Who is going to motivate Joe to attend the classes in the first place, especially if he has to pay? What treatment are you going to give Joe to counteract the very real withdrawal symptoms he will feel (google endorphins) -I haven't even scratched the surface here of what is going on psychologically and physiologically before we can address the baseline energy balance question.

In the end we are both correct. For some people it is easy and efficacious to implement the strategies you suggest and they will lose weight almost immediately. For others it is not easy at all and it will take gargantuan efforts to get them to lose weight -indeed, it may never happen. And there are plenty of people in between. Do you dispute this?
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xjx388 said:
And you think this catches me on what, now?
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One of these things you wrote is not like the other

  • People are dealt their genetic hands and play them out. It's impossible for some people to control their behavior
  • For all practical purposes, yes it was impossible for that person
  • I can look at the evidence provided by numerous studies, as well as the expert opinions and reach a reasonable conclusion that my Uncle had the biopsychosocial disease of Alcohol Dependence and that this disease made it impossible for him to control his behavior despite the rehab, love and other assistance he received.
  • At the most bassic level, things like obesity and drug addiction ARE 100% in our control.

You forgot this part:
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I forgot nothing. In this thread everyone agrees that there are numerous influences affecting a person. You and others take it a step further. At least now we know you've been doing little more than trolling.
 
UncaYimmy said:
One of these things you wrote is not like the other

  • People are dealt their genetic hands and play them out. It's impossible for some people to control their behavior
  • For all practical purposes, yes it was impossible for that person
  • I can look at the evidence provided by numerous studies, as well as the expert opinions and reach a reasonable conclusion that my Uncle had the biopsychosocial disease of Alcohol Dependence and that this disease made it impossible for him to control his behavior despite the rehab, love and other assistance he received.
  • At the most bassic level, things like obesity and drug addiction ARE 100% in our control.


I forgot nothing. In this thread everyone agrees that there are numerous influences affecting a person. You and others take it a step further. At least now we know you've been doing little more than trolling.
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At the most basic level=we can change physiology, overcome genetics. At a practical real world level, for some people, it's impossible to actually accomplish this. Maybe in the future, there will be a pill or therapy that will make it possible. Right now -impossible.

If anyone's a troll, it's you. You still haven't produced a shred of evidence that says everyone is equally capable of changing behavior. All you can do is try to point out what you think are inconsistencies. But you can't add anything substantive.
 
Dancing David said:
Um, not in any treatment settings that I know of, i asked for your citation, I am asking out of interest, not argument. The state of Illinois has DASA or whatever they call it now, there is one pool to treat substance abuse period.
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We weren't really referring much to treatment... I was intentionally trying to avoid discussing treatment for alcoholism as that normally requires religious/spiritual support groups. That's a whole other can of worms.

Your link is to funded research, am I correct?

Or is it to funded treatment? I may have mis-read it.
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Nah, the NIH is a research center, not a treatment center.

Dancing David said:
MikeSun5, you do know that in the DSM and the ICD alcohol is a subset of substance dependence/abuse ?
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Yes, but as this article explains, various organizations define the word alcoholism differently to suit their needs. It's that type of inconsistency that prevents us from having any type of productive discussion. People are arguing their cases without even having common definitions for the words they use.

Also, I would like to point out two things your post brought up: First, the ICD is from the WHO. The World Health Organization. Alcoholism being called a disease is almost exclusively a North American phenomenon. Second, the DSM is part of the American Psychiatric Association, and not the American Medical Association (who define alcoholism as a disease). IMO, alcoholism should be a subset of substance dependence/abuse and not researched or treated seperately from other addictions, so I agree with the WHO and APA in that regard.
 
xjx388 said:
At the most basic level=we can change physiology, overcome genetics. At a practical real world level, for some people, it's impossible to actually accomplish this. Maybe in the future, there will be a pill or therapy that will make it possible. Right now -impossible.
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You're just trolling. The evidence is obvious. See above and below.

If anyone's a troll, it's you. You still haven't produced a shred of evidence that says everyone is equally capable of changing behavior.
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I have no need to produce evidence for a claim I didn't make. You, however, claimed to know that some people can while some people cannot, but you have not supported that claim beyond, "if they don't, they can't."
 
UncaYimmy said:
You're just trolling. The evidence is obvious. See above and below.


I have no need to produce evidence for a claim I didn't make. You, however, claimed to know that some people can while some people cannot, but you have not supported that claim beyond, "if they don't, they can't."
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You never claimed that everyone can equally change their behavior?

The sticking point is the term powerless. All definitions of alcoholism (in my opinion) require two elements: Awareness and motor control. If either is missing, I don't believe any set of behaviors could be called alcoholism. If both are present, then I don't see how it's possible to be powerless.
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Not only did you say it, you said that you don't see how it's possible that people can't change their behavior. I've shown you how it's possible with scientific evidence. You have yet to show any scientific evidence for your position quoted above.
 
xjx388 said:
You never claimed that everyone can equally change their behavior?
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No, I did not.

Not only did you say it, you said that you don't see how it's possible that people can't change their behavior. I've shown you how it's possible with scientific evidence. You have yet to show any scientific evidence for your position quoted above.
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Funny how you didn't quote me saying that.

You have not shown any evidence that people are powerless. In fact, I just quoted where you agreed when you wrote, "at the most bassic [sic] level, things like obesity and drug addiction ARE 100% in our control." Now you seem to be arguing that what you said is not true.

I cannot prove a negative. When the mood strikes you, you assert that some people are powerless. You most definitely agree that some, in fact, have the power. Some people most definitely stop drinking. Hell, most people don't drink to excess. You are claiming that you can distinguish those who are powerless, but you have repeatedly failed to demonstrate this. You fell back on a claim that you "inferred" this from the fact that some people don't quit. Thus the fact that some don't is evidence that some can't. Only some of those that don't eventually do, so obviously they could.

It is the most ridiculous argument I've seen on this board, and I've seen quite a few. Of course, when you feel the heat from that argument, you fall back on, "Well, it takes gargantuan effort." If that's the case, then they can - they are not powerless. You, because you seem unwilling to keep multiple ideas going at once, ignore the issue of desire completely. Most addicts don't want the adverse effects, but that doesn't mean they don't want to use. They have conflicting desires.

I grow weary of this game of whack-a-mole. At least now it's pretty clear that you're doing little more than trolling with this constant changing of arguments and claims of evidence never presented.
 
UncaYimmy said:
I don't see how it's possible to be powerless.
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This is the claim you have to prove -that it isn't possible to be powerless. When you have evidence to back your claims I'd be interested to see it.
 
xjx388 said:
This is the claim you have to prove -that it isn't possible to be powerless. When you have evidence to back your claims I'd be interested to see it.
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I make no assertion that that it's impossible to be powerless. I simply claim that I've seen no evidence of this. We both agree that power exists in the majority of humans. You claim (when the mood strikes you) that some are powerless. It is up to you, not me, to show evidence for this claim. Remember, you are making an additional claim that I am not.

Of course, you really don't believe it anyway. Remember, you wrote, "at the most bassic [sic] level, things like obesity and drug addiction ARE 100% in our control." You even used ALL CAPS.
 
xjx388 said:
:boggled:
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You are obviously trolling.

I can't see <> Is not possible

Had I wanted to say it wasn't possible, I would have said, oh, I dunno, "it's not possible." Instead I said I couldn't see it and asked you to show me. You haven't. Why? Because you once wrote, "at the most bassic [sic] level, things like obesity and drug addiction ARE 100% in our control." You even used ALL CAPS.
 
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