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Is abortion always a sin?

Radrook

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If a mother will die giving birth if she carries the child to full term and she has no recourse to hospital incubation facilities, is aborton still a sin?
 
Radrook said:

You seem to have an agenda.
Why not speak clearly.
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All right. The bible is not a legitimate source of moral law. It advocates murder, slavery, intolerance and incest. I've just shown you an example of where it advocates murder. If you want examples of the other things it advocates, I'll be happy to give them to you. Leviticus is particularly troubling.

My definition of moral law is "that which is good for humanity". I admit that such a definition is fraught with contradiction. We must all decide for ourselves what is good. But I prefer that to having some 2000+ year old book tell me, especially when it espouses such intolerance.
 
Tricky said:
All right. The bible is not a legitimate source of moral law. It advocates murder, slavery, intolerance and incest. I've just shown you an example of where it advocates murder. If you want examples of the other things it advocates, I'll be happy to give them to you. Leviticus is particularly troubling.

My definition of moral law is "that which is good for humanity". I admit that such a definition is fraught with contradiction. We must all decide for ourselves what is good. But I prefer that to having some 2000+ year old book tell me, especially when it espouses such intolerance.
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The Bible is not 2000 years old.
What you are referring to is the NT.
The Bible goes back in recorded human history to approx 6,000 years.
So if antiquity is an issue for you, I guess now you even have a stronger reason to reject it.

I would not have used the word "sin" if it had been an ethics forum. But since it is a religion spirituality forum, I was forced to use the word "sin" to keep the subject within the forum parameters.

I would have much more preferred to approach the subject from a purely ethical viewpoint which stirs up far less controversy. But since there is no ethics forum at this site I had to deal with it in this context.

Good for humanity?


God considered it good for humanity to see how futile it is for humans to strive and please God without a Ransom sacrifice. So the law was made harsh on purpose in order to illustrate this forcefully.

Romans 3:20
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Also, seen from a purely human standpoint, where once life is lost it is irrevocably gone the punishment will seem extreme. But remember, God has the power to bring back these people. So their death to him was merely a temporary interruption--not a permanent judgment.

That's why God speaks of the people of Sodom a people he had executed, being present during Judgment Day.


Matthew 11:24
But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."


John 11:

21"Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask."
23Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
24Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."


But as I said, simply substitute the phrase "morally wrong" for "sin" and we can proceed from there.

BTW
Tolerance is not always good.
It tends to encourage lawlessness.


My apologies!
I just noticed that this forum has to do with both religion and philosophy. So yes it is legitimate to ask the question from a purely philosophical perspective! So the question can be asked as:

Is abortion always ethically wrong?
 
Tricky said:

All right. The bible is not a legitimate source of moral law. It advocates murder, slavery, intolerance and incest. I've just shown you an example of where it advocates murder. If you want examples of the other things it advocates, I'll be happy to give them to you. Leviticus is particularly troubling.
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Show me where the Bible advocates murder and incest.
Stoning of those condemmed under law was not murder.
I suggest you look up the definition.

Incest?

Surely you jest!


Leviticus 18
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.
3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.
7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.
10 The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.
11 The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman.
13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman.
14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.
15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.
17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.
18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.

KJV
 
Radrook said:

I would not have used the word "sin" if it had been an ethics forum. But since it is a religion spirituality forum, I was forced to use the word "sin" to keep the subject within the forum parameters.

I would have much more preferred to approach the subject from a purely ethical viewpoint which stirs up far less controversy. But since there is no ethics forum at this site I had to deal with it in this context.
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This is a religion and philosophy forum, and Ethics is one of the primary branches of philosophy. Your assertion is incorrect.

Do you want to discuss this from a "purely ethical viewpoint" at this time, or continue the religion angle?

If the religion discussion is to continue- as "sin" is normally defined as an offense against god- then NO, abortion is not "sinfull" at all because there is no god to offend.
 
Do we sin against God or, do we sin against our nature, regardless of whether God exists or not? Is it abortion that's the sin? Or, the selfish nature that quite often accompanies it?
 
If the two people involved in the pregnancy are teenagers who are left without proper sexual education or birth control alternatives, then I believe the parents of these teenagers are MORALLY responsible.
 
Radrook said:


A transgression of biblical moral law.
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Well, I suppose if one is bound to the bible for defining what is a sin or not, then your original question about abortion is unanswerable. Does the bible ever mention abortion?

For those of us who believe the bible is a load of bunk and not worth the pages it is written on, the concept of "sin" doesn't exist in the traditional religious sense. That doesn't mean abandonment of right and wrong, it just means we don't try and make morale decision based on a often vague and contradictory book.

I believe abortion is OK under most circumstances, although I do have problems with later term abortions. I think everyone has a line that they draw on this issue.
 
Can someone please explain why religious people regard abortion as a sin? This is a serious question.

I've always assumed it's because they believe an immortal soul is lost, but I've never understood how the business of immortal souls is supposed to work.

Does God create a new immortal soul every time a baby is conceived, or does he have a ready-made supply on hand?

40% of conceptions are miscarried, abortion is a drop in the ocean by comparison. Surely if God knows everything he knows in advance which pregnancies are going to miscarry or be aborted, and doesn't waste one of his precious immortal souls on something that will never be more than a half-inch mass of tissue... but in that case religious people wouldn't get so worked up about abortion, so that can't be right.

What about identical twins, do they end up with half a soul each?

My niece died when she was six hours old, did God create an immortal soul for her, and if so what will happen to that for the rest of eternity?

Like I say, completely mystified.
 
Pixel42 said:
My niece died when she was six hours old, did God create an immortal soul for her, and if so what will happen to that for the rest of eternity?
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Was the infant baptisted? If no, then she will wander Limbo forever (with all the bad Jews).
 
Tricky:

Why do we bother? [Cue Sad Part of William Tell Overture.--Ed.]

First, it is not a sin.

Second, I can only renew my suggestion that posters read just a bit of scholarship before making eroneous assertions such as this:

The Bible is not 2000 years old.
What you are referring to is the NT.
The Bible goes back in recorded human history to approx 6,000 years.
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More like 3000 in that:

Israel generated relatively few new myths, and the majority of them drew on older mythic material, including the Garden of Eden and the personifications of wisdom; . . . [Smith--Ed.]
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and no one dates E or J earlier than 922 BCE. Dating of D and P are controversial. While Friedman makes a very good case for a pre-exilic date for P, many still adhere to a post-exilic date.

I would not have used the word "sin" if it had been an ethics forum.
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More to point: where in the OT/NT is abortion defined as a "sin?" There is a pro-abortion passage however.

God considered it good for humanity to see how futile it is for humans to strive and please God without a Ransom sacrifice.
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Christian apologetic mischaracterization of the OT texts aside, I would remind of this wonderful case of Big Daddy determining what is "good" for humanity:

Ezek 20:25-26 Moreover I gave them statues that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know I am the Lord.
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--J.D.

References:

Freidman RE. Who Wrote the Bible?

Friedman RE. The Bible with Sources Revealed.

Smith MS. The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts.
 
The GM said:


Or Cain and his sisters.
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Abraham?

"And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake. And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife."
Genesis 20:11-12
 
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