Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

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The "proton spin crisis" came about as early scattering data on the proton internal structure seemed to imply that the total spin of the proton could not be accounted for by the quarks alone, and so it was thought that perhaps gluons carried some spin (e.g., Ashman, et al., 1988, Brodsky, Ellis & Karliner, 1988). But Veneziano, 1989 showed that the earlier papers were using an inappropriate definition for spin, pretty much putting the crisis away.

My point: I had never heard of the "proton spin crisis" until brantc mentioned it here. After about 15 minutes of exhaustive research using Google and the SAO/NASA ADS I was able to find out what the crisis was and the fact that is was solve a full 20 years before brantc chose to declare it to be still a crisis for physics. Now, it seems only reasonable to me that if one is going to declare a crisis for physics, one might at least spend a few minutes making sure that the crisis is really a crisis. Failing to do so destroys the credibility of the messenger, and therefore any trust that the message might have value or weight. Frankly, anyone that sloppy is truly unbelievable, whether the message be one regarding fundamental physics, or one regarding the power source for the sun.


I thought had done a pretty though search.

"Anyone that sloppy." Dude, pick another molehill.

Here is the free paper.
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/199254/files/198908366.pdf

"In any case, there is no reason to panic, unless spin is incorrectly defined."

Well we know spin is actually a magnetic property.
So why dont the call it magnetism?? Why dont they define it like that??
 
"current flow" vs current flow

... "current flow" ... "current flow" ... "current flow" ... "current flow" ... "current flow" ... current flow.
You have the conspicuous habit of putting the words current flow in quotation marks. In this post you did it 5 times, but then on the 6th and final occasion left the quotation marks off. One would normally assume that "current flow" (with quotation marks) is not actual current flow, but something that looks like current flow, whereas current flow (without quotation marks) is the real deal, real current flow, as in a current that is flowing. So, are you just being sloppy, or is there some significance to the presence and/or absence of quotation marks? After all, we are talking about the physics of the sun, and the physical difference between real current flow and something that looks like real current flow, but isn't really real current flow, could be significant. But of course the significance cannot be assessed without first knowing what it is.
 
CME Prediction

I stuck my neck on on Monday to "predict" CME's and flares from a specific region and low and behold today we see a CME and there have been flares too.
Really? I seem to have missed that one. I looked through your posts on a couple of threads and don't see the prediction. Can you cite or quote the post where you made that prediction? And why do you say "predict" in quotation marks? Does that mean you only acted like you were predicting, but didn't really predict? What is the significance of the difference between "predict" (with quotation marks) and just plain predict (without quotation marks)?
 
I did not see that post, can you link to it.


Sure.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186256

This post does lead to a few questions:

What is the difference between "predict" and predict.

Beats me. :)

Can you show your working for the prediction in enough detail that someone else can do it (this is a basic part of science)?

Yes. In fact I think I may even be able to automate the process.

Or was it just a guess, e.g. this area looks like it will produce a CME sometimne.

Oh, it wasn't a lucky guess. I even told you which area would produce them and my prediction was *NOT* in any way related to sunspot activity.

Can you make another prediction?

Sure. I'll bet another CME occurs within the next 3-4 days (probably sooner) from that exact same region in the northern hemisphere.

What is your success rate for your predicitions?

I guess it depends on how you're grading it. So far, so good.

Solar theories can and do predict CME, flares and anything of the sort.

I didn't see any of you talk about CME's this week.
 
Originally Posted by brantc View Post
Ok. Explain exactly how the photon dingles the electron.
Exactly what is the physical structure of the photon?? The electron??

What exactly is the field that allows it to transfer kinetic energy from the photon to the electron?? Spin (magnetic field)?

The photon is the quantum of the electromagnetic field.
What is an electromagnetic field made of? i.e What is a photon made of??
And here is my one more point: What has any of this to do with the sun and its power source? Photons, electrons, electromagnetic fields & etc. are all well established elements of classical physics, all extensively present in controlled laboratory experiments. So, if we do not know what they "really" are at some deeper level, how does that affect our understanding of the sun using these practical tools? I don't see that these are relevant questions and think we should drop the whole long topic and get back to the point of this thread, namely the sun.

Remember how we are talking about what actually comes from the sun in terms of energy. And we are also talking about the energy distribution of the sun. You are asking me why my solid surface does not sublimate. What is the power source of the sun.

I'm saying at the next level below the photon is what the photon is made of, the realm of Aetherometry. They explicitly talk about what the field is, what photons are, what electric charge is etc. This has to do with how the sun works.

The field(massless energy(ambipolar charge), massless charges) is what transfers energy from the sun to the earth. That is what you are measuring when you do a bolometric energy measurement.

The power source for the electric sun is the classical "field" which in aetherometry is "massless charges" or kinetic energy.
There is no description of the composition of the EM field so in order to understand what powers the sun you need to have something besides "virtual photons".

Everything, every other unit of measurement can be decomposed into meters per second as the base units in aetherometry. This is a wave speed measurement(I'm pretty sure, I will have to go and check) since everything can be talked about in terms of waves.

So let get back to the sun.

You question was:
Why isnt the photosphere at a higher temperature from this surface sublimating UV flux, or am I misunderstanding the question.

My surface is 400km below the photosphere visible surface. 90% of the solar UV comes from above it. Thats why my surface does not sublimate.
 
Well we know spin is actually a magnetic property.
So why dont the call it magnetism?? Why dont they define it like that??
No - spin is not a magnetic property. It is the other way around.
A particle with a charge that has spin has a magnetic field.
A particle without a charge that has spin does not have a magnetic field.
You are thinking about ferromagnetism where spin causes the magnetic field. The magnetic field does not cause spin.

But lets stop this derail and get back to your debunked idea:
Some outstanding questions on your physically impossible idea:
How long does it take for your solid iron surface to sublimate?
8th September 2010
First asked 19 September 2010
What magical thing happens in constructing running difference images of light emitted from Fe IX ions in the corona that reveals light relected from your physically impossible surface?
First asked 21 September 2010
brantc
Stellar formation is well understood.
FYI: Basically a cloud of gas clumps together under gravity until it gets dense enough for fusion to start and you have a star.

How did a gloud of gas form your physcially impossible solid iron surface on the Sun?
 
Well we know spin is actually a magnetic property.
So why dont the call it magnetism?? Why dont they define it like that??

Because spin is first and foremost a property of angular momentum, NOT magnetism. Quantum mechanics treats spin in terms of angular momentum, NOT magnetic moment, because that's what's quantized. Different particles with the same angular momentum (neutrons, protons, and electrons, and neutrinos, for example) all have different corresponding magnetic moments.

This is basic quantum mechanics, brantc. If you don't know it (and you clearly don't), why do you think you're in a position to comment on it?
 
Michael Mozina, sorry to butt in, I think there are a few lurkers also wondering about the difference images you're making with the SDO data. Have you given up on that idea?
 
I did not see that post, can you link to it. This post does lead to a few questions:
  1. What is the difference between "predict" and predict.
  2. Can you show your working for the prediction in enough detail that someone else can do it (this is a basic part of science)?
    Or was it just a guess, e.g. this area looks like it will produce a CME sometimne.
  3. Can you make another prediction?
  4. What is your success rate for your predicitions?
    99%? 1%? 0.01%?
Solar theories can and do predict CME, flares and anything of the sort.
Found it! (I think - the "CME's, active regions and high energy flares" thread where Micheal Mozina seems to want to list every bit of observed solar activity from now on to eternity).
No "prediction" of any sort though.
Micheal Mozina was looking at an active region. Active regions produce CMEs and flares. There was a CME. Wow :rolleyes:!
 
This is just a completely irrational statement IMO. Of course there is a direct link. In fact Birkeland "created" his aurora by bombarding his terella with a cathode ray. His entire solar theory, solar wind, jets, loops, etc were all created by "current flow" coming from a cathode sun. Now you can *CLAIM* that there is *ANOTHER* way to generate these events, but so far you've not provide any empirical laboratory evidence to support that claim. Let's see you generate aurora without a cathode.

Well, it is clear that you are not up to date with modern day magnetospheric physics. Maybe you should start with this very nice NASA poster about aurorae (you might like it because they even mention Birkeland!).

The fact that Birkeland could create the aurora by accelerated electrons directly from the cathode to the anode terrella and create a simulacrum of aurorae is because Birkeland's terrella is a very simplified (although in his time probably top notch) model of the Sun-Earth interaction. The terrella is not embedded in a super Alfvén magnetoplasma flow consisting of both ions and electrons like the solar wind, it does not have a bow shock, it does not have a magnetopause. Therefore, the electrons that Birkeland send to the terrella can immediately hook onto the terrellan magnetic field lines and move to the poles.

At Earth, this IS NOT POSSIBLE, there is NO direct access to the Earth's atmosphere, but for the strongest CMEs that hit the Earth (like on August 3rd of this year). Otherwise, the aurorae are created by electrons from he Earth's own magnetosphere, the currents are driven by changes in the magnetic field (mainly of the tail) setting up so called Birkeland currents, that have to move through charge deficient regions in the magnetosphere, which makes that electric fields are created over the auroral regions which accelerate the electron (such as to maintain the current density) and these electrons interact with the atoms/molecules in the atmospheric layers 70 to 400 km above the Earth generating the northern lights (or southern lights if you happen to be down under). These are the EXACT currents that Birkeland proposed were driving the aurorae and for which he got so much trouble apart from the fact that we now know that they do not come directly from the Sun, but from the magnetotail. There is physical evidence for that aplenty from innumerous space missions.

There is a link between the Sun and the Earth and the aurora, and that is that the Sun sends out the solar wind which is the main driver for ALL magnetospheric activity, it creates the magnetotail for example and can "destroy" the magnetotail, energizing plasma.

No, they are not "magnetic entities", they are *ELECTROmagnetic* entities that are driven, created and produce by "current flow" and they themselves are channels of "current flow". They aren't sterile magnetic lines, they are powerful *DISCHARGES* through plasma. They wouldn't form at all if the sun were not a cathode and were not discharging itself to the heliosphere.

Ah discussing the finer details of semantism, how tiresome.
The magnetic coronal loops that we see are only parts of magnetic fields that are created below the photosphere of the Sun. Through the fact that the field increases, and the loop needs to remain in pressure equilibrium, this means that there will be less plasma in the loop (total pressure being the magnetic pressure plus the plasma pressure). This means that the loop is in mass lighter than it surroundings and will rise up and part of it will break through the surface and show up as a coronal loop with foot points in the photosphere.

Now, the strong magnetic field of the loops is mainly generated below the photosphere, where the magnetic loop originates. But through the motion of the loop and its foot points, there will be magnetic shear and current will also be driven along the field. Now, the current flowing along the field cannot create the field it is flowing along (for obvious reasons).

Now, because there is plasma and no insulating dielectric on the Sun, there is no democrat at a tea party that these loops can be *discharges* because there is nothing to discharge, because there cannot be large scale electrical charge build up in a highly conducting plasma. And if the loops would be *discharges* between the Sun and the heliosphere (which should be heliopause probably) then why do they have both footpoints on the Sun?

I and several others have repeatedly explained MM why in his MHD plasma vision there cannot be a discharge in a plasma. Now he will come back with his favourite "plasma ball" (which I explained fully in this post). Apparently, MM does not understand what the conditions are for Hannes Alfvén's MDH approximation of the plasma physics equations.

There's no point in going through each item because they are all related to "current flow". Once Birkeland turned off the power, the party was over and nothing "worked". You can't duplicate his experiments and his empirical "predictions" in the lab without current flow.

This is a prime example of why you're still living in the dark ages. You can't figure out what the actual "cause" of the acceleration of solar wind even when it's be "lab tested" for you and everything.

Once we will turn off the solar wind (god forbid this will happen, but in an EU universe anything is possible) then there will be no more activity in the Earth's magnetosphere, and thus there will be no more aurorae.

Michael, like I said, it is you who is living in the dark ages, only believing things that have been done at the beginning of the previous century, and insisting on having to use the MDH and circuit approximations of full plasma physics.

Up to now you have not brought anything of substance to the discussion. The only thing you can do is complain, but when asked for a real scientific discussion or even ask for details on claims you make, you give no answer. You will not quote Birkeland with page number nor quote Alfvén with page number verbatim. That is because you know you cannot find the wrong claims that you make in their work. Heck, you don't even try to touch my "quick and dirty" discussion of Birkeland's scientific work in the thread I created, because that would put your nose in the facts that you factually do not understand his work.

Well, this is going to be a nice discussion of all the same old same old topics again.
 
How did you place your solid iron surface 400km below the photosphere

Remember how we are talking about what actually comes from the sun in terms of energy. And we are also talking about the energy distribution of the sun. You are asking me why my solid surface does not sublimate. What is the power source of the sun.
[q/uote]
That is easy - the power source of the sun is fusion at its center.
Of course there are cranks that think that the sun is a giant light bulb but they ignore the physical facts:
  1. The amount and types of neutrinos are those expected by enough fusion to produce the energy that the sun emits.
  2. The lack of approriate gamma rays that would be produced by the fusion means that the fursion is at the core of teh sun wher ethe gamma rays can be converted to other wavelengths as they are absorbed and reemitted on their way to the surface.
  3. The amount and types of neutrinos cannot be created by electricity.
  4. Point 3 rules out the cranks fantasy of the fusion happening on the surface.
My surface is 400km below the photosphere visible surface. 90% of the solar UV comes from above it. Thats why my surface does not sublimate.
First asked 23 September 2010
brantc
How did you place your solid iron surface 400km below the photosphere?
Why not 400,000km?
Why not 40,000km?
Why not 4,000km?
Why not 40km?
I do hope that you did not just make up the number and have some physical evidence for it. For example your physcially impossible solid iron surface on the Sun would be easily seen in helioseismology data.
I look forward to the many papers you will cite to support this number.

But...
The measured temperature of the interior of the photosphere at about that depth is ~9400K. Your physcially impossible solid iron surface on the Sun is now totally sublimated.

There is also the optical depth of the photosphere which means that reflections from your physcially impossible solid iron surface on the Sun cannot be seen in the TRACE images (of the corona!) that you and Micheal Mozina are so mistaken about.
MM is even more mistaken than you though. He has placed his iron layer 20,000 km below the photosphere where less than 1 photon per year escapes from it! We will ignore the measured convection currents that go right through his (and your) iron layer.
 
There's no point in going through each item because they are all related to "current flow". Once Birkeland turned off the power, the party was over and nothing "worked". You can't duplicate his experiments and his empirical "predictions" in the lab without current flow.


Once again I'll remind you that you severely misunderstand Birkeland's work, and when you misrepresent it as you have above, it is a lie. Birkeland's terrella was no more a realistic working model of the Sun's physical properties than my Revell model of the RMS Titanic, by nature of the fact that it floats, is a working model of a steam powered ocean liner.

And another thing......

Your solar theories are useless. You can't actually "predict" a CME or flares or anything of the sort. I stuck my neck on on Monday to "predict" CME's and flares from a specific region and low and behold today we see a CME and there have been flares too. While you're still playing around with computer models, I'm able to actually *successfully* "predict" solar CME's and solar flares. You can't do that because you don't understand any of it.


Actually you haven't used any part of your crackpot conjecture to make any sort of scientific prediction. You looked at some videos, noticed some activity, and "predicted" that there would be some more activity where that activity was. It's not even good cold reading. Your claim to have predicted anything, in the sense of a scientific theory, is a lie.

Science is objective, Michael. In order for you to support a claim that some conjecture has predictive abilities, you need to describe the method, objectively, mathematically, in detail, so that other people can apply your method and repeatedly achieve the same results. You haven't done any such thing, never, in all your years of preaching your faith.
 
Michael Mozina, sorry to butt in, I think there are a few lurkers also wondering about the difference images you're making with the SDO data. Have you given up on that idea?


Yes, Michael, please see my post here and explain your current position on all those assertive, confident declarations you were making so many months ago about how some SDO data processed into running difference images was going to finally vindicate your claims.
 
First asked 23 September 2010
brantc
How did you place your solid iron surface 400km below the photosphere?
Why not 400,000km?
Why not 40,000km?
Why not 4,000km?
Why not 40km?
I do hope that you did not just make up the number and have some physical evidence for it. For example your physcially impossible solid iron surface on the Sun would be easily seen in helioseismology data.
I look forward to the many papers you will cite to support this number.

I guess you missed that whole discussion.
Opacity 1 in IR correlates with white light flares from Hi-Node.
That is where the data says it is.
 
I guess you missed that whole discussion.
Opacity 1 in IR correlates with white light flares from Hi-Node.
That is where the data says it is.
What data?
Please show your calculations that "Opacity 1 in IR correlates with white light flares from Hi-Node" results in your your physcially impossible solid iron surface on the Sun being a distance of 400km below the top of the photosphere. A link to the post containing this is all you need.
 
CME Prediction II

I stuck my neck on on Monday to "predict" CME's and flares from a specific region and low and behold today we see a CME and there have been flares too.
... Can you cite or quote the post where you made that prediction?
I had not yet seen the thread Mozina initiated, where the alleged prediction is to be found: "CME's, active regions and high energy flares".

Now, let us start by re-visiting Mozina's own opinion of his own words ...
I stuck my neck on on Monday ...
Oh, it wasn't a lucky guess. I even told you which area would produce them and my prediction was *NOT* in any way related to sunspot activity.
Now let us look at the actual prediction ...
The STEREO-Behind 195-A images show two active regions in the northern hemisphere that are close together and have started electromagnetically interacting with each other. These are pretty much prime conditions for x-ray flares and CME's IMO.
Flares invariably come from active regions, and it is known that the stronger flares & CME's come from the active regions with the most complex magnetic field structure. That magnetic field structure is made visible by the extended loops. Hence, the complicated the loop structure, the stronger we can expect the flare to be.

So now we ask ourselves, exactly how far did Mozina "stick his neck out"? Well, all he actually said was "two active regions in the northern hemisphere that are close together and have started electromagnetically interacting with each other" and "These are pretty much prime conditions for x-ray flares and CME's IMO." The first sentence simply describes the conditions that are already known to favor stronger flares and CME's, namely magnetic complexity. And the second sentence does not really amount to a prediction of anything, as far as I am concerned, since it only points out what we already know, namely that this active region could produce a flare or CME. We are forced by reason to conclude that (a) Mozina did not "stick his neck out" at all, and (b) Mozina did not actually predict anything at all.

Now, combined with the observations above, remember this ...
  1. What is the difference between "predict" and predict.
Beats me. :)
I had asked a similar question, and I assume that Mozina's answer will/would be the same. But I do note that in the passage I quoted above, he uses the word without quotation marks, thus:
Oh, it wasn't a lucky guess. I even told you which area would produce them and my prediction was *NOT* in any way related to sunspot activity.
The discussion so far leads me to observe that there are two major flaws with this two-sentence statement. The second sentence suffers from the weakness of specifically referencing a prediction, when in fact nothing Mozina had said could be reasonably interpreted as a prediction (first major flaw). The second sentence also suffers from the weakness of claiming that the prediction is not based on sunspot activity, when in fact Mozina's non-predictive statement is wholly based on sunspot activity; that's what a solar active region is, an active sunspot group (second major flaw). Now Mozina does claim that his alleged prediction is not a "lucky guess", and that much is probably correct. How much "luck" does it require to predict (had he actually done so) that a magnetically complicated active region will produce a flare or CME, when in reality it would have been stick-your-neck-out-surprising (to use a phrase of my own invention) had such an active region not produced a flare or CME?

You can't actually "predict" a CME or flares or anything of the sort.
Actually, we can & do, on a regular basis. See the NOAA/NWS Space Weather Prediction Center, and specifically the Latest SWPC 3-day Space Weather Forecast. And I don't mean "predict" in quotation marks so you can wiggle out of any alleged prediction you may or may not have made. I mean predict, the real word, the real thing, like Holy cow, Batman, look at that active region! Stand back, she's gonna flare!! Any magnetically complicated active region will cary a high probability of flare and/or CME activity, so it does not take much predictive talent or stick-your-neck-outness to see one and guess (or even predict) a flare or CME.

I am not impressed.
 
What data?
Please show your calculations that "Opacity 1 in IR correlates with white light flares from Hi-Node" results in your your physcially impossible solid iron surface on the Sun being a distance of 400km below the top of the photosphere. A link to the post containing this is all you need.

z direction.
NEAR-INFRARED OBSERVATIONS AT 1.56 MICRONS OF THE 2003 OCTOBER 29 X10 WHITE-LIGHT FLARE
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171313&page=106

x and y direction.
Hinode Discovers the Origin of White Light Flare
http://www.physorg.com/news193597764.html

My hypothesis indicates that the solid surface of the sun is located at the intersection of these observations, opacity 1, directly below a sunspot, at the loop foot prints. Only a solid surface arc can create a flare bright enough to be seen from above the photosphere by HINODE and NSO.
 
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