Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

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Ok. Your claim is that density doesnt matter.
My claim is that density is more important than path length even though it might seem like the same thing.

No, brantc. Density determines optical depth, but opacity is determined by the ratio of optical depth to physical depth.

Or conversely thermalization with a short path (in a solid/water) produces blackbody where as "thermalization" in a thin(Atm or less density) plasma does not produce blackbody.

What the hell are you talking about? What do you think "thermalization" means? If scattering doesn't produce a black body spectrum, then the photons are not thermalized.

You can call Dr Ott at NIST and talk to him about arc discharges in high pressure gas. He was a pioneer in this field. He would be happy to talk to you.

About what?
Edited by Tricky: 
Edited for moderated thread.

You're saying they did not realize that "JET is physically much smaller than the optical depth of the plasma inside it."

Uh, no. I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm quite sure they knew that. I provided that information to YOU because YOU seem unaware of that.

From the Jet website. You must have missed this.

I didn't miss it, I just understood what was implicit that you did not. They did not expect that the plasma would be opaque, but that it would give off a spectrum proportional to a blackbody spectrum (though less intense because it's NOT opaque). What they observed was additional radiation, due to unexpected radiation mechanisms.

I would take "were not consistent with this expectation" as saying that had theoretical expectations that were not met.

Yes, but you don't understand either the expectations OR what it means that they were not met.

Since you seem to know alot about this subject, Zig, where did they go wrong??

They didn't "go wrong". They discovered a new mechanism for producing radiation for their particular plasma under particular conditions. None of it has any bearing on the concept of optical depth, and its relationship to blackbody radiation.
 
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All I'm saying is IF there was a solid surface nearby, the light at 171 would reflect off of it.
It may be below the corona but it is still moving independently from surrounding light sources therefore it can reflect off of other features(assuming they would reflect as opposed to scatter or absorb)..
It doesnt matter where the light comes from, it still reflects IF there was something that was solid nearby, the light emitted from the object @ 171 would reflect off of something solid just like light at 650nm, 700nm, 1600A or any other light.

Blackbodies reflect light, otherwise you couldnt see it, other than the sun which is emission mostly.

A "blackbody" is purely an emission source, however if you were to shine a light on this emission source would you expect it to be invisible?

No solid matter is black enough to absorb 100% of the incident light.
There is always some small percentage of reflected light. Once again reality and the lab trump theory and "definition".

If you can show me something (matter) with 0% reflectivity, then I will agree with you.
That is what brought this about. I was told that blackbodies dont reflect any light (100% absorb). The closest I can find is 99.9% absorption.

I'm still waiting for that experiment that shows 100% absorption of light.

-----------

That leaves little doubt in my mind that this is somehow a central tenet of your beliefs.



You (and MM) seem to be unnaturally attached to "lab experiments on earth".

Why don't you give this one a whirl:

I) Get a steel plate (perhaps 6" X 6" X 1/4") and clamp securely in a heat-tolerant fixture (such as a vise).

II) Get an Oxy-Acetylene or Oxy-Gas torch with a large "rosebud" heating tip and arrange it to steadily head the center of the "backside" of the plate safely.

III) Heat the plate so the central region is at 1500 - 2200 F. (orange to white heat).

IV) Direct a (any color or wattage you have) laser pointer beam at the central region and observe for the laser spot to be visible.

--------------

Unless I have severely misunderstood the physics, you won't see any spot.

(Those of you who understand Physics better than I are invited to correct me if I am wrong.:D)

Cheers,

Dave
 
Lets take the last one first.

Why the name Ghost Limb?? Because the position and wavelength of the object in the image does not fit the standard model. Notice how there is no follow up work on this ghost limb.
Its not the data thats there, its the data thats missing when we have the ability to capture it, that is interesting.
The name "ghost limb" comes from the second paper misquoting the first paper's "ghosted limb". The ghosted limb in the first paper is the effect data processing to try to remove contamination from the image. The "ghosted limb" is the true limb + ghosting!
There is no object there. There is a data processing artifact there.

The reason that "there is no follow up work on this ghost limb" is that it is an artifact produced by the processing.

...snipped stuff based on the false premise that a data processing artifact is an actual physical based...
But of course if you have evidence that this data processing artifact is an actual object then I suggest that publish it an get a Nobel prize :).

So it is the standard model calculations that says that you cannot see under the photosphere where as this observation says that the model is wrong.
The standard physics (not model) calculations say that you cannot see deep under any plasma that has the measured optical depth of the photosphere. That is the definition of optical depth - the depth by which the intensity of light decreases by 1/e in the material. There is no observation only a data processing artifact.

So why is the surface under the photosphere 10K C?? How could it be solid.

1. Your assumption is that the photosphere has 100% coverage(no energy leak).
2. That the photosphere is generating the complete(blackbody) spectrum of the sun.

The photosphere does not have 100% coverage.
The photosphere does not generate a blackbody.
Its a thin plasma, it generates lines.
That is wrong: The phostosphere is thick. It generates a roughly blackbody spectrum that we measure it! :jaw-dropp.

Neutrinos dont prove anything.

Neutrinos prove something:
  1. That there is nuclear fusion happening in the Sun.
  2. That the observed energy produced by that Sun matches the amount of energy that would be produced fusion that created these neutrinos.
Add that the conditions that allow fusion to occur include temeratures and pressures that restrict it to the core of the Sun and the Sun has a hot interior that cools as you get to the photoshere. Thus:
  • Calculated temperatures of ~13,600,000 K :eye-poppi at the core.
  • Measured temperatures of ~9400 K at a few hundred km below the photosphere.
  • Measured temperatures of ~5700K at the photosphere.
Thus no solid surface below the phososphere.
 
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The Solar EUV Radius V

The "ghost limb" is the bottom of the transition layer.
The "ghost limb" exists only inside the optics of the telescope, as an artifact. It is not real on the sun.

This is 2 arc seconds(~2000KM) above the true limb. This means the photosphere is in the middle of the space between the ghost limb and the true limb. This means you are seeing under the photosphere at ~9740K.
Since the "ghost limb" is an artifact, this is all equally artificial.

What I'm looking for that I have yet to find is a broadband UV high resolution limb image. I know TRACE can do it.
You really have to pay more attention around here. See my earlier post The Solar EUV Radius from April 30 (already buried away on page 60!). The 17.1 nm (171A) radius of the sun sits about 2 arcseconds above the 30.4 nm (304A) radius. The former is coronal and the latter is the transition region. And both are larger than the optical radius, which is the photosphere.

You are misinterpreting an optical artifact and getting it all wrong. Meanwhile, the actual observations of the solar limb have already been done. We see the photosphere below the transition region below the corona, as expected. See also my follow-up posts The Solar EUV Radius II and The Solar EUV Radius III for further development of the topic.
 
The Solar "Ghost Limb" Is An Optical Artifact

Posted 7 June ...
The "ghost limb" is the bottom of the transition layer.
This is 2 arc seconds(~2000KM) above the true limb.
This means the photosphere is in the middle of the space between the ghost limb and the true limb.
This means you are seeing under the photosphere at ~9740K.

Posted 11 June ...
Why the name Ghost Limb?? Because the position and wavelength of the object in the image does not fit the standard model.

OK, now everybody look at the paper already linked by brantc and Reality Check: Calibrated HI Lyman-alpha Observations with TRACE (PDF link) & NASA/ADS link, which shows citations & references). Now look at figure 1 on PDf page 2, journal page 352. This figure shows that the spectral response of the TRACE 1216 Angstrom (Å) filter is double-peaked, the first peak at about 1216Å and the second peak at about 1550Å.

See the text regarding this on the first page of the paper: "It was known prior to launch that the HI Lyman-alpha (1216Å) channel would be similarly affected by non-Lyman-alpha emission. It is subject to a double peak in spectral response with one peak located at ~1216Å and a second peak situated at approximately 1550Å (see Figure 1). This unusual spectral response results from the convolution of a narrowband UV coating on the primary mirror at 1500Å and a filter near the focal plane centered at 1216Å."

It is obvious from Figure 1 (a & b), and from the accompanying text, that the "ghost limb" is an artifact of the double-peaked spectral response of the instrument at 1216Å.

Now, brantc says (emphasis mine) ...
I say its the ghost limb is the lower transition layer. That means the photosphere is 1 arc second(100km) below the the transition layer in the images. This makes sense since it should not show up in a 1200 image.

Partly correct. A 1600Å image should not show up in a narrowband 1216Å filter, and would not. However, the double peaked response of TRACE guarantees that the 1216Å image will always be contaminated by 1600Å emission. The whole point of the paper is to calibrate the 1216Å data by removing (or attempting to remove) the 1600Å contamination in post-processing of the data.

The bottom line is that the "ghost limb" is without question an artifact of the optics (not the data processing). It has no physical reality beyond the internal optics of the telescope, which renders all of brantc's arguments falsified.
 
The Solar "Ghost Limb" Is An Optical Artifact II

Notice how there is no follow up work on this ghost limb.
This too is incorrect. See Kim, et al., 2006, which verifies the correction originally proposed in Handy, et al., 1999. Also see Rubio da Costa, et al., 2009, where the double-peak spectral response is shown again. They use the calibration originally proposed in Handy, et al., 1999 to clean up the Lyman-alpha images of a solar flare for comparison with X-ray images of the same flare.

You probably searched for the word "ghost" or "ghosted" or something like that. But the absence or presence of that particular word is of little relevance. The authors of the followup papers understood what you failed to realize, namely that they were dealing with an optical artifact, not a physically real feature on the sun.
 
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That leaves little doubt in my mind that this is somehow a central tenet of your beliefs.



You (and MM) seem to be unnaturally attached to "lab experiments on earth".

Why don't you give this one a whirl:

I) Get a steel plate (perhaps 6" X 6" X 1/4") and clamp securely in a heat-tolerant fixture (such as a vise).

II) Get an Oxy-Acetylene or Oxy-Gas torch with a large "rosebud" heating tip and arrange it to steadily head the center of the "backside" of the plate safely.

III) Heat the plate so the central region is at 1500 - 2200 F. (orange to white heat).

IV) Direct a (any color or wattage you have) laser pointer beam at the central region and observe for the laser spot to be visible.

--------------

Unless I have severely misunderstood the physics, you won't see any spot.

(Those of you who understand Physics better than I are invited to correct me if I am wrong.:D)

Cheers,

Dave

Do you think if I used our 15MJ lab laser and a spectrometer I could detect the incident light upon the blackbody source?

Would I have to heat the spot up hotter than the surrounding area before I could see it?
 
Posted 7 June ...

Posted 11 June ...

OK, now everybody look at the paper already linked by brantc and Reality Check: Calibrated HI Lyman-alpha Observations with TRACE (PDF link) & NASA/ADS link, which shows citations & references). Now look at figure 1 on PDf page 2, journal page 352. This figure shows that the spectral response of the TRACE 1216 Angstrom (Å) filter is double-peaked, the first peak at about 1216Å and the second peak at about 1550Å.

See the text regarding this on the first page of the paper: "It was known prior to launch that the HI Lyman-alpha (1216Å) channel would be similarly affected by non-Lyman-alpha emission. It is subject to a double peak in spectral response with one peak located at ~1216Å and a second peak situated at approximately 1550Å (see Figure 1). This unusual spectral response results from the convolution of a narrowband UV coating on the primary mirror at 1500Å and a filter near the focal plane centered at 1216Å."

It is obvious from Figure 1 (a & b), and from the accompanying text, that the "ghost limb" is an artifact of the double-peaked spectral response of the instrument at 1216Å.

Now, brantc says (emphasis mine) ...


Partly correct. A 1600Å image should not show up in a narrowband 1216Å filter, and would not. However, the double peaked response of TRACE guarantees that the 1216Å image will always be contaminated by 1600Å emission. The whole point of the paper is to calibrate the 1216Å data by removing (or attempting to remove) the 1600Å contamination in post-processing of the data.

The bottom line is that the "ghost limb" is without question an artifact of the optics (not the data processing). It has no physical reality beyond the internal optics of the telescope, which renders all of brantc's arguments falsified.


Its a filter.
Nothing mysterious about that.

They are talking about contamination from other channels.
The mirror coating probably increases the response at 1500 which is over the filters attenuation factor. This shows up as a peak in the response because the filter cant remove it cleanly.

The wedge issue is different.

"The correction mechanism described in this paper is able to remove part of the ghosted limb, but it is evident that corrected limb images are still not right. What is left is evidently some form of limb brightening that is not corrected by this method."

i.e. Actually there, not an artifact.

They dont want to see other wavelengths. They are not talking about the filters making other things(limbs) appear.

From the paper;

affected by non-Lyman-alpha emission.

"From the figure it is evident that  60% of the signal in the L image is from the L 1216 Å emission line while the balance of the signal is from UV emission near 1550 Å and longer wavelengths. Simple calculations prior to launch suggested that the C IV emission near 1550 Å could be dealt with since the L emission line is typically a much brighter line. Pre-launch models indicated that the 1216 Å channel would contain  50% L emission and the remainder would be UV continuum and 1550 Å emission."


:boggled:
 
<snip>

You (and MM) seem to be unnaturally attached to "lab experiments on earth".

Why don't you give this one a whirl:

I) Get a steel plate (perhaps 6" X 6" X 1/4") and clamp securely in a heat-tolerant fixture (such as a vise).

II) Get an Oxy-Acetylene or Oxy-Gas torch with a large "rosebud" heating tip and arrange it to steadily head the center of the "backside" of the plate safely.

III) Heat the plate so the central region is at 1500 - 2200 F. (orange to white heat).

IV) Direct a (any color or wattage you have) laser pointer beam at the central region and observe for the laser spot to be visible.

--------------
Unless I have severely misunderstood the physics, you won't see any spot. (Those of you who understand Physics better than I are invited to correct me if I am wrong.:D)


Does no one care to respond, or has there not been time enough (since the ModSquad allowed visibility :) ) for any of the *real* physicists to see it yet?

I would appreciate any criticism of my (mis)understanding of the Blackbody Physics involved.:)


(Or, perhaps, "Those-Who-Would-Know", eg. Sol, Zig, PS, DD, DRD, et al, have "abandoned all hope" as far as this thread is concerned.:D --- After all, they hung around FAR longer than anyone had any right to expect.:))

Cheers,

Dave
 
I am sure they will respond by Monday, from reading this thread my question would be:

Is heating solid iron to glowing a 'black body'? I think not for reason satted upthread.

The real issue is this Brantc

What is the penetrating optical depth for the UV wavelength supposedly reflecting off the 'iron surface of the sun'?

How much plasma is there above the alleged 'iron surface of the sun'?

If the penetrating depth of the UV is 3.5 meters , how the heck is any of that reflecting of the 'iron surface of the sun' to be seen?
 
Do you think if I used our 15MJ lab laser and a spectrometer I could detect the incident light upon the blackbody source?

Would I have to heat the spot up hotter than the surrounding area before I could see it?

Go ahead and try it, then you tell me. :)

Though if it only heated it up locally, and didn't demonstrate significant direct reflection, I would say that your hypothesis was falsified.

If you are going to be using such sophisticated equipment anyway, carefully record your results and publish a paper while you're at it. I would love to see the results.

Cheers,

Dave
 
I am sure they will respond by Monday, from reading this thread my question would be:

Thanks, DD, I guess I am a bit impatient with moderated threads and the built-in delay.:)

Is heating solid iron to glowing a 'black body'? I think not for reason satted upthread.

I had the (perhaps mistaken) impression that at ca. 2000 F it's behavior was fairly close to real BB behavior, enough to do this experiment as a demonstration.

I may have drawn the wrong inference, though.

Cheers,

Dave
 
Does no one care to respond, or has there not been time enough (since the ModSquad allowed visibility :) ) for any of the *real* physicists to see it yet?

I would appreciate any criticism of my (mis)understanding of the Blackbody Physics involved.:)


(Or, perhaps, "Those-Who-Would-Know", eg. Sol, Zig, PS, DD, DRD, et al, have "abandoned all hope" as far as this thread is concerned.:D --- After all, they hung around FAR longer than anyone had any right to expect.:))

Cheers,

Dave
I don't want to comment on your specific example CD, partly because I'm not familiar enough with the parameters, but mostly because I think there's a much larger issue.

When we discuss these sorts of things we have, almost always, in the background assumptions about the scope, or range, of parameter space* that applies.

For example, when we talk about solids we can play with in our labs, ordinary labs (not the ones that go waaay beyond everyday experience), we are happy to equate blackbody with 'reflects less than 1% (or 0.1%) of incident light' (or something similar).

However, if we shine a really, really, really intense light on such a 'blackbody', reflecting even 0.1% is a big deal ... set up appropriately, such a blackbody in such strong light would be seen to reflect a lot of light.

For example, we usually think of reflectance in terms of the visual waveband, or perhaps the visual, NIR (near infrared) and UV. What we don't think of is x-rays, gammas, or radio. When electromagnetic radiation in these wavebands impinged on our lab solid 'blackbody', or even a plasma like the Sun, all sorts of physical interactions take place that result in our blackbody being anything but! For example, x-ray fluorescence, and the highly reflective nature of plasmas, above the plasma frequency (usually in the microwave, or radio, region).

I think this is the source of one of the points brantc made (but it's hard to tell; I find his posts really hard to understand) - he's moved the goalposts far beyond the parameter space we've implicitly assumed.

Does this help?

* this is a delightful term, capturing so much in just two words; however, if you aren't familiar with it, it can be essentially meaningless; holler if you'd like an explanation
 
The Solar "Ghost Limb" Is An Optical Artifact III

The wedge issue is different.

"The correction mechanism described in this paper is able to remove part of the ghosted limb, but it is evident that corrected limb images are still not right. What is left is evidently some form of limb brightening that is not corrected by this method."

i.e. Actually there, not an artifact.

No, actually it is an artifact, and the wedge issue is a critical part of the proof. Read the paper more carefully.

"An additional complication that becomes apparent in studying limb observations is a manifestation of a slight 'wedge' in the MgF2 entrance filter. The surfaces on the MgF2 entrance filter were specified to be parallel to < 5 arc sec, and the flight filter was measured to be ≈ 2-3 arc sec. Since the indices of refraction for MgF2 vary over the range 1200-1600 Å, this wedge is manifested as a shift of 1-2 arc sec in the UV continuum image relative to the La image (figure 5). This effect is a very small one, and is nearly imperceptible on the NE limb."
Handy, et al., 1999, bottom paragraph p. 358

Now, you did say this...
The ghost limb is visible at 1600A is 4-10000C. This is below the transition layer.
The ghost limb is 2 arc seconds(1600km) above the limb.
The limb is 1200A(10-30000C) which matches with your observations of the temperature under the photosphere..

You cannot see the photosphere at this wavelength.

Yet in the image we can see that there is gap between the GL and the limb.

So there is no getting around the fact that you have interpreted the 2 arc second gap between the UV "ghost limb" and the Lyman-alpha limb as a real physical gap on the sun. But the authors of the paper are quite unambiguous about the "gap" being in fact a displacement between the UV & Lyman-alpha images caused entirely by the wedge shape of the entrance filter.

In other words, there actually is an artifact. The spatial placement of the "ghost limb" is entirely due to optical effects internal to the telescope (a wedge shape filter) and does not represent any spatial relationship on the sun. The spectral placement of the UV limb in the Lyman-alpha image is also due to optical effects internal to the telescope (a convolution of filter & mirror coating) and does not represent any physical effect on the sun.

Mozina misinterpreted an image processing artifact as a real physical feature on the sun. Now you have misinterpreted an optical artifact as a real physical feature on the sun. Both of you fail to appreciate the level of attention to detail necessary to understand scientific papers.
 
Solar Black Body Emission

I would appreciate any criticism of my (mis)understanding of the Blackbody Physics involved.:)

I don't see any major problems. Of course, a true blackbody would never reflect any incident electromagnetic radiation; a true blackbody would absorb any & all incident electromagnetic radiation and would emit only Planck-law thermal ("blackbody") electromagnetic radiation.

But in the real universe there are no true blackbodies, so no real object will behave that way. However, we can certainly approximate a true blackbody, to the extent that technology & financing allow. Laboratory blackbodies are usually designed to operate where there is little or no incident radiation anyway, so they are designed to look like blackbodies in emission, ignoring how they behave with regard to the incident radiation that is not there anyway (e.g., the reference blackbody used to calibrate the COBE FIRAS).

Any optically thick plasma will emit electromagnetic radiation in a very nice approximation of a true blackbody, if it is isothermal. The photosphere of the sun does in fact emit as a very nice approximation of a true blackbody, but it is not isothermal. So each temperature layer of the photosphere emits nearly blackbody radiation; we see little from the bottom because there is too much absorbing & scattering material above it, little from the top because it is becoming optically thin, and most from the middle where it is still optically thick but there is not too much stuff above it. So all those blackbody (Planck-law) spectral energy distributions (SEDs) add up to one SED that looks like a blackbody at about 5777 Kelvins. The observed optical spectrum is a sum of that near blackbody continuum plus absorption features from the photospheric gases.

As to whether or not a solid surface would reflect 171 Å incident radiation, quite regardless of its status as a "blackbody", that depends greatly on other considerations I don't see in the conversation. For one thing, if the surface is mostly iron, as Mozina and perhaps brantc seem to think, then I would expect very little reflection, simply because 171 Å is an iron emission line, and anything iron emits it will also absorb. I would expect the vast majority of any 171 Å radiation incident on an iron surface to disappear in the act of ionizing the iron, with only a small fraction being reflected back. And as DD points out, any of that reflected radiation is subject to being absorbed or scattered by the overlying plasma. The result is likely to be an un-observably small amount for us to see. Of course, brantc has relied on his "ghost limb" argument to push the point that we actually do see this reflected light, but as I have already pointed out in the posts above (The Solar EUV Radius V, The Solar "Ghost Limb" Is An Optical Artifact, The Solar "Ghost Limb" Is An Optical Artifact II, The Solar "Ghost Limb" Is An Optical Artifact III), he is relying on an optical artifact, so his claim is easily falsified.

But the entire discussion is moot in any case. We already know from simple thermodynamical considerations that a solid or rigid or liquid iron surface is physically impossible. So it's asking "if this impossible surface were present, would it reflect an impossible flux of 171 Å radiation?". Impossible is impossible, not just improbable.
 
I don't want to comment on your specific example CD, partly because I'm not familiar enough with the parameters, but mostly because I think there's a much larger issue.

I had hoped you would, but I understand. Perhaps later. :)
When we discuss these sorts of things we have, almost always, in the background assumptions about the scope, or range, of parameter space* that applies.

For example, when we talk about solids we can play with in our labs, ordinary labs (not the ones that go waaay beyond everyday experience), we are happy to equate blackbody with 'reflects less than 1% (or 0.1%) of incident light' (or something similar).

However, if we shine a really, really, really intense light on such a 'blackbody', reflecting even 0.1% is a big deal ... set up appropriately, such a blackbody in such strong light would be seen to reflect a lot of light.

Maybe I left the intensity limit too wide open. :o
For example, we usually think of reflectance in terms of the visual waveband, or perhaps the visual, NIR (near infrared) and UV. What we don't think of is x-rays, gammas, or radio. When electromagnetic radiation in these wavebands impinged on our lab solid 'blackbody', or even a plasma like the Sun, all sorts of physical interactions take place that result in our blackbody being anything but! For example, x-ray fluorescence, and the highly reflective nature of plasmas, above the plasma frequency (usually in the microwave, or radio, region).

I think this is the source of one of the points brantc made (but it's hard to tell; I find his posts really hard to understand) - he's moved the goalposts far beyond the parameter space we've implicitly assumed.

Does this help?

I was intending to debate/debunk the concept that the light from flares/prominences/loops due to "electrical discharges" was reflecting from/illuminating the solar "features" at many thousands of K, whether plasma or solid iron, by inventing a simple experiment anyone could perform easily, based on my (admittedly imperfect) understanding of the behavior of incandescent surfaces. I was not even close to certain that the simple off-the-cuff procedure would actually perform as I expected, as I had not yet tested it myself, but from my experience with welding/cutting/heat treating I thought there was a good chance. :)

And yes, it helped.
* this is a delightful term, capturing so much in just two words; however, if you aren't familiar with it, it can be essentially meaningless; holler if you'd like an explanation

I (without looking it up) believe it refers to the entire range of all the variables involved, independent or dependent, controlled for or not.

Am I close?

Cheers,

Dave
 
I don't see any major problems. Of course, a true blackbody would never reflect any incident electromagnetic radiation; a true blackbody would absorb any & all incident electromagnetic radiation and would emit only Planck-law thermal ("blackbody") electromagnetic radiation.

I never intended to imply any "true" BB, just real-world near BBs that I believe to be close enough for a first approximation. :)
But in the real universe there are no true blackbodies, so no real object will behave that way. However, we can certainly approximate a true blackbody, to the extent that technology & financing allow. Laboratory blackbodies are usually designed to operate where there is little or no incident radiation anyway, so they are designed to look like blackbodies in emission, ignoring how they behave with regard to the incident radiation that is not there anyway (e.g., the reference blackbody used to calibrate the COBE FIRAS).

So, would my simple "experiment" serve it's purpose; to shoot holes in the reflecting/illuminating assertions of MM and brantc?
Any optically thick plasma will emit electromagnetic radiation in a very nice approximation of a true blackbody, if it is isothermal. The photosphere of the sun does in fact emit as a very nice approximation of a true blackbody, but it is not isothermal. So each temperature layer of the photosphere emits nearly blackbody radiation; we see little from the bottom because there is too much absorbing & scattering material above it, little from the top because it is becoming optically thin, and most from the middle where it is still optically thick but there is not too much stuff above it. So all those blackbody (Planck-law) spectral energy distributions (SEDs) add up to one SED that looks like a blackbody at about 5777 Kelvins. The observed optical spectrum is a sum of that near blackbody continuum plus absorption features from the photospheric gases.

Thank you for that expansion and clarification. :)
As to whether or not a solid surface would reflect 171 Å incident radiation, quite regardless of its status as a "blackbody", that depends greatly on other considerations I don't see in the conversation. For one thing, if the surface is mostly iron, as Mozina and perhaps brantc seem to think, then I would expect very little reflection, simply because 171 Å is an iron emission line, and anything iron emits it will also absorb. I would expect the vast majority of any 171 Å radiation incident on an iron surface to disappear in the act of ionizing the iron, with only a small fraction being reflected back. And as DD points out, any of that reflected radiation is subject to being absorbed or scattered by the overlying plasma. The result is likely to be an un-observably small amount for us to see. Of course, brantc has relied on his "ghost limb" argument to push the point that we actually do see this reflected light, but as I have already pointed out in the posts above (The Solar EUV Radius V, The Solar "Ghost Limb" Is An Optical Artifact, The Solar "Ghost Limb" Is An Optical Artifact II, The Solar "Ghost Limb" Is An Optical Artifact III), he is relying on an optical artifact, so his claim is easily falsified.

Thank you. Much as I would have expected, based on my somewhat limited depth of Physics education.
But the entire discussion is moot in any case. We already know from simple thermodynamical considerations that a solid or rigid or liquid iron surface is physically impossible. So it's asking "if this impossible surface were present, would it reflect an impossible flux of 171 Å radiation?". Impossible is impossible, not just improbable.

We already knew that, but MM and brantc seem to have a bizarre inability to accept any argument that doesn't involve an "experiment" performed in a "real lab with real controls" on Earth. I was trying to provide them with a simple one they could perform themselves. :D

Thanks for your response.

Cheers,

Dave
 
Does no one care to respond, or has there not been time enough (since the ModSquad allowed visibility :) ) for any of the *real* physicists to see it yet?

I would appreciate any criticism of my (mis)understanding of the Blackbody Physics involved.:)


(Or, perhaps, "Those-Who-Would-Know", eg. Sol, Zig, PS, DD, DRD, et al, have "abandoned all hope" as far as this thread is concerned.:D --- After all, they hung around FAR longer than anyone had any right to expect.:))

Cheers,

Dave

You are right for that scenario.

The effect is intensity dependent for the light source and the blackbody.

You can have a non glowing blackbody of 900C that reflects a high intensity light...
 
We already knew that, but MM and brantc seem to have a bizarre inability to accept any argument that doesn't involve an "experiment" performed in a "real lab with real controls" on Earth. I was trying to provide them with a simple one they could perform themselves. :D

Thanks for your response.

Cheers,

Dave

I think there is a whole history of science the relies on "bizarre inability to accept any argument that doesn't involve an "experiment" performed in a "real lab with real controls" on Earth."

It really is a thought experiment(or calculations) if it doesnt involve a lab experiment. I work in a lab everyday. I guess that makes me crazy for sticking to good science.

You can extrapolate from known hard data from lab experiments.
Theres nothing wrong with that.

However saying that a mathematical calculation is equivalent to a lab experiment is totally false.
And using math to get from point A to B without an experiment to back it up is not good science, especially with computer models these days..
 
But in the real universe there are no true blackbodies, so no real object will behave that way. However, we can certainly approximate a true blackbody, to the extent that technology & financing allow. Laboratory blackbodies are usually designed to operate where there is little or no incident radiation anyway, so they are designed to look like blackbodies in emission, ignoring how they behave with regard to the incident radiation that is not there anyway (e.g., the reference blackbody used to calibrate the COBE FIRAS).


That was my whole point. There are no true blackbodies. A mathematical figment not born out by reality.
And that the reflection factor depends on the intensity of the source and the intensity of the blackbody.
 
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