Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

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Reality Check said:
Just wait untill MM starts to fantasize about the Solar Dynamics Observatory results (an amazing 1.5 Terabytes per day!)
Solar Dynamics Observatory unveils "first light" movies

Ohhh - the Fe images look like mountain ranges :rolleyes: !
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Notice in that Fe movie how the lines all go horizontal and stay in that position? That's an nifty trick for thin little whispy plasma if the magnetic field lines are coming up, presumably from the core and suddenly all turn at a right angles (different trajectories no less) and stay that way.
 
It must be semantics and spell checking day at the JREF forum. You'll pardon me while I go checkout the rest of the SDO images now......
 
Michael Mozina said:
It must be semantics and spell checking day at the JREF forum.
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No, Michael. I think that sentence I quoted revealed a profound misconception on your part. Perhaps I'm wrong, in which case the corrected sentence should reveal my mistake. But if I am not, then fixing the grammar and spelling won't fix the misconception, and the sentence still won't make sense even if it's grammatically correct.
 
Michael Mozina said:
Very cool! Thanks for the link. I wanna see the one white light filter and the iron ion wavelengths in real time. Wanna bet the loops come up and through the photosphere?
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Are you saying you've finally learned what the photosphere is? That would be a step forward and might help some of your communication problems, don't you think?
 
Michael Mozina said:
It seems to me that the devil is in the details and that's a little "handwavy" from my perspective. The strong magnetic lines in Hinode images are typically related to coronal loop configurations and those "magnetic lines" are "hot hot hot", as in million degree hot.
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I'll have to leave that to someone else. Magnetism itself isn't hot or cold, of course.

You now want me to believe that something that tends to produce heat,
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First, I wouldn't characterize magnetic fields as "something that tends to produce heat." In some circumstances they are part of a heat generation mechanism (perhaps indirectly), in some they aren't.

somehow blocks the flow of plasma over a very wide area for a long time.
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I believe that the 'somehow' part is quite well understood. Plasma, being charged, naturally interacts strongly with a magnetic field. As for the 'wide area, long time' - well, as long as those magnetic fields persisted . . .

The opaque nature of the photosphere should allow heat to easily transfer from one area of plasma to another. Even if we stopped the mass flow entirely, the heat would still tend to transfer from one "opaque" region to another, especially if it's hotter underneath. Where else can it radiate heat other than "out"?
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Indeed. This is why the umbra is at 3000+ deg even though it's radiating into 2.7 deg space (plus some really-not-negligable-compared-to-space-background chromosphere). If it weren't receiving any heat from the rest of the sun, it would settle into an equilibrium temperature of 2.7 deg K. That would take a while, though.

No, but we would still have a considerably higher temperature plasma that will continue to radiate into lower temperature plasma, very efficiently too if all the plasma are "opaque".
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As long as the convective coupling transfers a significant amount of heat to the non-sunspot areas, the sunspots will be cooler than the surrounding surface. For an example of the effectiveness of convective coupling, (and this is a thought experiment only!), start a nice fire in the fireplace. Hold your hand a few inches away from the flame and feel the radiative coupling. Now hold your hand a few inches above the flame and feel the convective coupling.
 
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How does your Iron Sun fantasy create the observed magnetic field of the Sun

Michael Mozina said:
Notice in that Fe movie how the lines all go horizontal and stay in that position? That's an nifty trick for thin little whispy plasma if the magnetic field lines are coming up, presumably from the core and suddenly all turn at a right angles (different trajectories no less) and stay that way.
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This is the movie description
Next, here's a coronal mass ejection erupting in our direction as seen in numerous wavelengths. Alan Title remarked that the wavefront is moving at half a million miles an hour; video frames are spaced 20 seconds apart in time. This is a halo coronal mass ejection, which impacts Earth.
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The "horizontal" lines are plasma moving in 3D but we are looking down at the Sun and so the radial motion is what is seen. Wow - big surprise that you missed this basic fact :rolleyes:!

Learn some solar physics sometime:
  • The fact that plasma is "whispy" allows it to be moved around more easily by magnetic fields.
  • The magnetic field that moves the the plasma is not just coming from the core. The Sun's general magnetic field is generated from differential rotation within the Sun (see dynamo theory and the solar dynamo). There is also the magnetic field in the coronal loops (usually in an arcade) which are poking out into the photosphere and further.
Which leads to yet another question for you whic I doubt that you can answer.
First asked 22 April 2010
Michael Mozina,
How does your Iron Sun fantasy* create the observed magnetic field of the Sun?
It will have to duplicate the actual behaviour of the field, e.g. reversing every so often, etc.

(*this is a fantasy beause Micheal Mozina's iron crust has been debunked! )
 
Reality Check said:
Wanna bet that the loops come up and through the photosphere as in the standard model?
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If they are visibly doing that in 195A or 171A or something related to the iron ion wavelengths, LMSAL's claim about the location of solar moss activity goes out the window and so will your claim of "opacity". :)
 
jhunter1163 said:
Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't an iron sun cool off and solidify in less than 4.6 billion years?
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There are more immediate problems with his model, starting with the fact that he thinks it's ALREADY a solid shell, even though that's thermodynamically impossible. None of it makes sense. But if you really want to follow the crazy, google his name and you can find his website.
 
jhunter1163 said:
Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't an iron sun cool off and solidify in less than 4.6 billion years?
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Ziggurat said:
There are more immediate problems with his model, starting with the fact that he thinks it's ALREADY a solid shell, even though that's thermodynamically impossible. None of it makes sense. But if you really want to follow the crazy, google his name and you can find his website.
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If you read some of the material in these links you might get a better understanding of the crackpot claim, and more importantly you'll see that no evidence has ever been provided to support it, no valid science, not a single quantitative explanation, no calculations to support any physics, ever, no qualifications to understand satellite imagery, not a single piece of legitimate objective evidence in over a half a decade...

Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum...
8 pages, 30 posts per page...

13 pages, 30 posts per page...

14 pages, 30 posts per page...

12 pages, 30 posts per page...

Sockpuppet: ManInTheMirror - 4 pages, 30 posts per page...

Sockpuppet: ManInTheMirror - 36 pages, 30 posts per page...

Einstein@Home forum at the University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee...

Over 3,000 postings over at the Skeptic Friends Network...
 
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Michael Mozina said:
If they are visibly doing that in 195A or 171A or something related to the iron ion wavelengths, LMSAL's claim about the location of solar moss activity goes out the window and so will your claim of "opacity". :)
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If they are visibly doing that in 195A or 171A or something related to the iron ion wavelengths, LMSAL's claim about the location of solar moss activity does not go out of the window.
Your are still ignorant of
  • The location of the foorprints of the coronal loops seen in the TRACE images is where they become visible.
  • The photosphere is defined as the region that emits light in a star. "It extends into a star's surface until the gas becomes opaque, equivalent to an optical depth of approximately 2/3".
  • For the Sun this is a depth of a few hundred kilometers. This does vary a bit according to wavelength.
Moss on the sun found by NASA's Trace probe
Solar moss occurs at the base of certain coronal loops, immense magnetic arches of hot gas that are anchored in the Sun's visible surface and could span several dozen Earths laid end to end. It appears only below high pressure coronal loops in active regions, typically persisting for tens of hours, but has been seen to form rapidly and spread in association with loops that arise after a solar explosion, called a flare.
The moss consists of hot gas at about two million degrees Fahrenheit which emits extreme ultraviolet light observed by the TRACE instrument. It occurs in large patches, about 6,000 - 12,000 miles in extent, and appears between 1,000 - 1,500 miles above the Sun's visible surface, sometimes reaching more than 3,000 miles high.
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There is no "claim" about opacity. It is a really simple physical fact to comprehend:
  • Light travels in a straight line.
  • When it hits an atom it is scattered.
  • Hit enough atoms and light cannot through the material.
 
Magnetic Reconnection Redux XI

Dancing David said:
This is very disingenuos, TT posted exactly what possible mechanisms are at play at what may generate the heat of the corona.
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Michael Mozina said:
Those "possible methods" relate directly back to "circuit reconnection". Calling it "magnetic reconnection" is equally disingenuous. The only empirical tests of concept involve two "flowing filament circuits" of energy which they move together until they "short circuit". It's then called "magnetic reconnection"! Don't talk to me about being "disingenuous" and "desperate" when you're peddling what Alfven himself called "pseudoscience".
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Of course, we have been all over this in the magnetic reconnection discussion, in which you were able to demonstrate that solar physics is by no means the only area of intellectual endeavor wherein you are afflicted with profound ignorance. If you want to continue the discussion in that thread, by all means do so. But your continued insisting that "magnetic reconnection" is really "circuit reconnection" is just plain stupid. I was even able to demonstrate the reality of magnetic reconnection in laboratory plasma experiments (e.g., Comments on Magnetic Reconnection III; Magnetic Reconnection Redux X), but you still reject it.

Magnetic reconnection is a physically real process directly observed in laboratory plasma experiments. Circuit reconnection is stupid and indefensible.

In addition to the material found in the magnetic reconnection thread, here are two current & extensive review papers on astrophysical and laboratory magnetic reconnection. Neither is freely available online, but both Annual Reviews and Reviews of Modern Physics are top class journals, easy to find at least in university libraries, and anyone interested enough can buy individual papers online.

Magnetic Reconnection in Laboratory and Astrophysical Plasmas
Ellen Zweibel & Masaaki Yamada; Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics 47: 291-332 (2009)
Abstract: Magnetic reconnection is a topological rearrangement of magnetic field that converts magnetic energy to plasma energy. Astrophysical flares, from the Earth's magnetosphere to γ-ray bursts and sawtooth crashes in laboratory plasmas, may all be powered by reconnection. Reconnection is essential for dynamos and the large-scale restructuring known as magnetic self-organization. We review reconnection theory and evidence for it. We emphasize recent developments in two-fluid physics, and the experiments, observations, and simulations that verify two-fluid effects. We discuss novel environments such as line-tied, relativistic, and partially ionized plasmas, focusing on mechanisms that make reconnection fast, as observed. Because there is evidence that fast reconnection in astrophysics requires small-scale structure, we briefly introduce how such structure might develop. Several areas merit attention for astrophysical applications: development of a kinetic model of reconnection to enable spectroscopic predictions, better understanding of the interplay between local and global scales, the role of collisionless reconnection in large systems, and the effects of flows, including turbulence.

Magnetic Reconnection
Masaaki Yamada, Russell Kulsrud & Hantao Ji; Reviews of Modern Physics 82(1): 603-664 (January, 2010)
Abstract: The fundamental physics of magnetic reconnection in laboratory and space plasmas is reviewed by discussing results from theory, numerical simulations, observations from space satellites, and recent results from laboratory plasma experiments. After a brief review of the well-known early work, representative recent experimental and theoretical works are discussed and the essence of significant modern findings are interpreted. In the area of local reconnection physics, many findings have been made with regard to two-fluid physics and are related to the cause of fast reconnection. Profiles of the neutral sheet, Hall currents, and the effects of guide field, collisions, and microturbulence are discussed to understand the fundamental processes in a local reconnection layer in both space and laboratory plasmas. While the understanding of the global reconnection dynamics is less developed, notable findings have been made on this issue through detailed documentation of magnetic self-organization phenomena in fusion plasmas. Application of magnetic reconnection physics to astrophysical plasmas is also discussed.
 
Michael Mozina said:
Those "possible methods" relate directly back to "circuit reconnection". Calling it "magnetic reconnection" is equally disingenuous. The only empirical tests of concept involve two "flowing filament circuits" of energy which they move together until they "short circuit". It's then called "magnetic reconnection"! Don't talk to me about being "disingenuous" and "desperate" when you're peddling what Alfven himself called "pseudoscience".



It could not be opaque and also "trap heat" at some magic point in the 10,000 degree plasma you claim is under the photosphere at some depth. How does 10,000 "opaque" plasma suddenly lose all that heat and never pick any of it back up from the surrounding "opaque" plasma? None of your beliefs make the slightest bit of sense, and not a single one of them jives with the satellite images, including those mass flows *POURING* out of the photosphere!

The photosphere isn't *opaque* at all IMO, in fact it's only even marginally 'opaque" to white light, and not even that if the source is bright enough. I'm sure you'd love me to pull some number out of my hat, but I'm not going to do that. Whatever number we come up with has to come directly from the satellite data and/or ground based images and none of them suggest that the bright photosphere *layer* is "opaque" to anything. The umbra portion cannot be "opaque" at all.
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Nice rant MM, try answering the question:

1. What is the opacity of the photosphere?

Is this your final answer?
The photosphere isn't *opaque* at all IMO, in fact it's only even marginally 'opaque" to white light, and not even that if the source is bright enough.
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Michael Mozina said:
But the whole photosphere has "depressions" and ridges!

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/3307756.html?page=1&c=y

Those filaments are certainly being 'depressed' in the right side of that Gband image. We can watch the filaments flow "down" into the umbra. Well, evidently RC can't, but others clearly do as that Arxiv paper I cited earlier demonstrates.
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Excuse me, MM, take a breath, thanks.

I asked how can you demonstrate it? That is a legitimate and polite question, appearances can be deceiving.
 
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