Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

[Reality Check]

Are there any other magical heating and refrigeration processes I should be aware of? You have some kind of magic refrigeration process cooling the plasmas deep in the sun to thousands of degrees cooler than the surface. You have magic heating process located at 1200 KM *above* the photosphere too. Are there any other thermodynamically impossible feats related to standard theory that I should be aware of?

There are no "magical heating and refrigeration processes", that you should be aware of, just standard theremodymics:

• Is your solid iron surface thermodynamically possible? First asked 8 July 2009. See this post for a fuller explanation of the thermodynamic problems with MM's solid iron surface.
• Why this iron crust is thermodynamically impossible
• Iron Sun Surface Thermodynamically Impossible IV

There is no magic. Just the physics you are ignoring.
Sunspots are another issue and have been explained to you.

 

[Michael Mozina]

And yet you apparently didn't know that it was.

No apparently that's your own strawman so you can kick it around today and pretend it's me. Yawn.

I'm stuck using your piss poor terms, like it or not. Shall we switch over to my terms and just call it the "neon layer" then?

 

[Reality Check]

That is why I asked "which part". The 3D aspects of the sunspot however really isn't a "debate" among most gas model theorists.

Nor is it among the posters here.
What is an issue is your assertion that the filiments in sunspots descend 3000-3750 km into the photosphere from an image looking down on the sunspot.
Can you show how you calculated that "3000-3750 KM" figure for the photosphere depth?

 

[Reality Check]

Great. Explain to me *WHERE* your mystery refrigeration system "cools' the plasma,...?

• Is your solid iron surface thermodynamically possible? First asked 8 July 2009. See this post for a fuller explanation of the thermodynamic problems with MM's solid iron surface.
• Why this iron crust is thermodynamically impossible
• Iron Sun Surface Thermodynamically Impossible IV

 

[GeeMack]

No apparently that's your own strawman so you can kick it around today and pretend it's me. Yawn.

I'm stuck using your piss poor terms, like it or not. Shall we switch over to my terms and just call it the "neon layer" then?

Is your "neon layer" the region in the Sun's atmosphere where the density of the plasma transitions from being transparent to being opaque? A few posts ago you said that region was your "crust". Do you wonder why people find you so difficult to understand?

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't debate that that is the definition. I simply do not believe anything other than the solid surface is "opaque" to every wavelength under the sun.

Then you don't think that what is commonly called the photosphere is actually the photosphere. In which case, you should have been saying that from the start. Which I suggested you do, quite some time ago.

And you still haven't demonstrated that you understand the definition of "opaque" either (this post of yours suggests serious misconceptions about opacity).

 

[Reality Check]

Let's hear you quantify the refrigeration process for us. How far under the surface of the photosphere does this plasma cool to say 4000K? ...

Try reading some of the many posts that have already expalined sunspots to you.
Alternatley try reading a textbook on solar physics.

The photosphere in general heats up with depth (measure to be ~9400 K at ~500 km).

 

[Michael Mozina]

Hi Tim Thompson, you may have been fooled by MM's ignorance of what the image contains.
Sunspots Revealed in Striking Detail by Supercomputers has the following caption for the image:

and from the animation page:

The image is of magnetic field strength, not convection.

How can you be that close, and yet that far?

The field and the strength at that field are directly related to the "mass flow" inside the discharge loops that we see in the Hinode overlay image which come up along side (inside) the penumbral filaments. I've shown you the mass flow image movies in 171A, the Hinode CA/X-ray overlay images, tons of Hinode images galore, and you still don't seem willing to put two and two together. Yes, you're right, those are "magnetic fields" and that "magnetic field" is directly related to the "mass flow/current flow" coming up/down inside the loops and through the penumbral filaments. How can you not see that or the curvature *DOWN* in the Gband images?

 

[Michael Mozina]

Try reading some of the many posts that have already expalined sunspots to you.
Alternatley try reading a textbook on solar physics.

The photosphere in general heats up with depth (measure to be ~9400 K at ~500 km).

So all this energy is coming up through thousands of kilometers of convection flows and suddenly, in some magic place, it all suddenly "cools off' to 4000K somewhere right before it reaches the umbra? Where? How? Where is all that extra energy going?

 

[Reality Check]

I'm stuck using your piss poor terms, like it or not. Shall we switch over to my terms and just call it the "neon layer" then?

No. The photosphere is measured to be mostly hydrogen. It is a "hydrogen layer" not your fantasy of a "neon layer" or the other layers:

1. Why neon for your "mostly neon" photosphere?
2. Where is the "mostly fluorine" layer?
3. What is your physical evidence for "mostly Li/Be/B/C/N/O" layers?
4. What is your physical evidence for the "mostly deuterium" layer?

 

[Michael Mozina]

There are no "magical heating and refrigeration processes", that you should be aware of, just standard theremodymics:

• Is your solid iron surface thermodynamically possible? First asked 8 July 2009. See this post for a fuller explanation of the thermodynamic problems with MM's solid iron surface.
• Why this iron crust is thermodynamically impossible
• Iron Sun Surface Thermodynamically Impossible IV

There is no magic. Just the physics you are ignoring.
Sunspots are another issue and have been explained to you.

By your same logic, that 4000K umbra is "thermodynamically impossible" too.

 

[phunk]

So all this energy is coming up through thousands of kilometers of convection flows and suddenly, in some magic place, it all suddenly "cools off' to 4000K somewhere right before it reaches the umbra? Where? How? Where is all that extra energy going?

No! Read and pay attention. There is nothing cool flowing into the umbra to create a sunspot. It isn't cool material coming up from below, it is stagnant material radiating its heat away into space without some of the heat being replaced from below.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Try reading some of the many posts that have already expalined sunspots to you.
Alternatley try reading a textbook on solar physics.

The photosphere in general heats up with depth (measure to be ~9400 K at ~500 km).

What you describe is *AT LEAST* as thermodynamically impossible" as you put is as anything that I've proposed. At a depth of just 500Km your upwelling superheated plasma somehow miraculously cools off at least 5000K, picks up no surround heat for the next 500KM or so, to reach the umbra at 4000K? Come on. Your ideas are just as far fetched if not more so.

 

[phunk]

By your same logic, that 4000K umbra is "thermodynamically impossible" too.

Wrong. The difference is that the umbra has a heat sink, empty space above it. It can lose heat via radiation into space. Something below the photosphere can't do this, it is completely surrounded by opaque material.

 

[Michael Mozina]

No! Read and pay attention. There is nothing cool flowing into the umbra to create a sunspot.

There is material flowing up and down in the sunspot. In fact you can see it flare out to create the penumbra. You can see everything push away from the penumbra too in many images, particularly the CA Hinode images. Did you see any of that whole page of Hinode images I posted earlier?

It isn't cool material coming up from below, it is stagnant material radiating its heat away into space without some of the heat being replaced from below.

Well, IMO your claim fails the observation test in terms of the flow of material seen in the images themselves. I'll round you up a few after work but you'll find many examples of material rising though and even descending into the umbra on previous images I posted a few days ago.

You also have a big problem with this "opaque" thing, not to mention "mass flow" problems related to convection. If if the "mass flow" part stopped somehow (haven't a clue why), the radiation of heat from opaque area to opaque area would transfer the heat anyway from the below the sunspot. You also have a huge problem related to mass flow in terms of explaining what happened to the upwelling plasma in the convection tubes associated with these areas, not to mention the problem with satellite imagery and the notion the area is "stagnant".

 

[GeeMack]

What you describe is *AT LEAST* as thermodynamically impossible" as you put is as anything that I've proposed. At a depth of just 500Km your upwelling superheated plasma somehow miraculously cools off at least 5000K, picks up no surround heat for the next 500KM or so, to reach the umbra at 4000K? Come on. Your ideas are just as far fetched if not more so.

But since it has been demonstrated that you don't posses the qualifications necessary to speak with any authority or expertise on any issue of solar physics, I think it's reasonable for you to add that this is a wholly unsupported opinion. Don't you agree?

Oh, and are you still using this as your standard for acceptable evidence?...

Since you never produced any paper to back up that claim we can only surmise that you pulled that [claim] out of your ^ss.

 

[GeeMack]

There is material flowing up and down in the sunspot. In fact you can see it flare out to create the penumbra. You can see everything push away from the penumbra too in many images, particularly the CA Hinode images. Did you see any of that whole page of Hinode images I posted earlier?



Well, IMO your claim fails the observation test in terms of the flow of material seen in the images themselves. I'll round you up a few after work but you'll find many examples of material rising though and even descending into the umbra on previous images I posted a few days ago.

You also have a big problem with this "opaque" thing, not to mention "mass flow" problems related to convection. If if the "mass flow" part stopped somehow (haven't a clue why), the radiation of heat from opaque area to opaque area would transfer the heat anyway from the below the sunspot. You also have a huge problem related to mass flow in terms of explaining what happened to the upwelling plasma in the convection tubes associated with these areas, not to mention the problem with satellite imagery and the notion the area is "stagnant".

Your qualifications to understand and properly analyze solar imagery have been challenged and you have failed to demonstrate that you possess the necessary qualifications. Your unsupported opinion is not acceptable as evidence.

 

[dasmiller]

So all this energy is coming up through thousands of kilometers of convection flows and suddenly, in some magic place, it all suddenly "cools off' to 4000K somewhere right before it reaches the umbra? Where? How? Where is all that extra energy going?

Asking how "all this energy" suddenly "cools off" is very poor wording from a physical perspective. The better-phrased question would be "why is the matter in the umbra cooler than the matter in the surrounding, brighter areas."

As previous posts have explained, the umbra is cut off from the convection cells that dominate the surrounding areas. Thus, as the umbra radiates heat, it simply cools off because the matter in the umbra is not cycling back down to the deeper, hotter regions.

Of course there's still radiative and conductive heat transfer from below and from the surrounding areas. And, of course, the umbra itself is still radiating. But since the conductive and radiative coupling to the rest of the sun transfers quite a bit less energy than convection, the umbra's equilbrium temperature (where its radiation is equal to the energy it's receiving from the rest of the sun) is quite a bit lower than the equilbrium temperature of the non-sunspot areas.

If you think that it's simply impossible for convection to be cut off like that, explain why. If you think that cutting off convection couldn't cause the umbra's equilibrium temperature to be that much lower, I think you'll have to give us something quantitative rather than just asserting that this mechanism can't possibly give the observed result.

As for "it all suddenly cools off" - why do you think it's sudden?

If if the "mass flow" part stopped somehow (haven't a clue why), the radiation of heat from opaque area to opaque area would transfer the heat anyway from the below the sunspot.

Yes, it does. It just doesn't transfer heat as rapidly as convection does, so the sunspot's equilibrium temperature is lower.

ETA - I'll openly admit this is not one of my areas of expertise. Tim, Zig, Sol, RC, etc - I'm confident that you'll let me know if I got any of it wrong.

 

[Michael Mozina]

No.

OMG. Would you folks please figure out a logical term then that satisfies both of our needs so we can move on already?

 

[GeeMack]

OMG. Would you folks please figure out a logical term then that satisfies both of our needs so we can move on already?

How about you learn the glossary of terms HERE? Since everyone else uses the same terms to mean the same things, how about you, the odd man out, the guy who insists on using terms incorrectly, learn to use the existing terms properly, the way everyone else does? Doesn't that sound like a reasonable suggestion?

ETA: Oh, and for some reason you're still ignoring this simple yes/no question. Does this still represent your standard of acceptable evidence?...

Since you never produced any paper to back up that claim we can only surmise that you pulled [claim X] out of your ^ss.