Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

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No, 100 year old experiments that show "electric universe" theories work in a lab, unlike 95+ percent of mainstream mumbo jumbo.
Yeah "in a lab", but last time I looked. labs could not duplicate Solar conditions.

And just WHERE do you come up with your fanciful percentages? I submit that you pull them from your rectum -- prove me wrong.

I think you folks need someone harping on you about the value of real physics. You folks seem to have no clue how to tell the difference between a "real physical force" like an EM field and some crap you simulate on a computer related to invisible fairy energy.
You certainly do more than enough harping for 100 cranks, but you have demonstrated no real understanding of Physics so far.

If you have evidence for the imaginings of your fevered "mind", then by all means collect them, write the papers, and relax while the Nobel Committee decides to award you the the Prize. Time's a wastin' -- get started.

Well, if you mean a volcanic event, sure.
And you seem to support vulcanism further downpost. Hmmm.

I can just imagine Birkeland's reaction at seeing your confusion about the cause of solar wind.....
Just as one could imagine Linus Pauling's consternation at seeing his vitamin-C concepts shot down in flames.

Being once-genius has never implied being always-genius, but, what was your point?

Do you folks do anything other than belittle the value of "observation"? Did it look like a tsunami, yes or no? Was it in fact a wave on the photosphere, yes or no? What are those rigid outlines under the wave?
OK. You tell us.

No, I was talking about the crust itself, not the entire sun. Even parts of the surface are "volcanically active" and not necessarily solid per se. The sun itself isn't dense enough to be entirely solid.
Alright, now enlighten us on what exactly you envision as as supporting this "shell" that doesn't violate thermodynamics or the observed mass/size -- AKA density.

Even if that were completely true, so what? Mainstream theory can't make something as simple as solar wind work in a lab, and you aren't abandoning that theory. The mainstream has never demonstrated sustained fusion either. You still aren't abandoning fusion sun theory. What's the big deal with a few "unexplained" aspects of any theory?

Well, you could start at "does it match what we already have massive evidentiary and theoretical support for?" and go on towards "OK, we see something unexpected here, what is that trying to tell us" and on from there.

Oh wait, you weren't talking "observations" were you, you said "What's the big deal with a few "unexplained" aspects of any theory?", didn't you? Well, that doesn't sound like anything a self-respecting scientist would want to propose with his name attached. {I could be off base here, and trust that some REAL scientist will correct me.:) I have never claimed to be anything but an interested amateur at science.}

Cheers,

Dave
 
That sure "looks like" that "discharge" passes through the photosphere too, but I'm sure you'll ignore that data as well.
http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/15 April 2001 WL.gif
We know that you are largely ignorant of solar physics, MM, e.g.
These are some of the questions that MM has been asked and seems incapable of answering other than by unsupported assertions

But from a knowledgeable, layman's point of view I see overloaded CCD elements causing zigzags in that image.

I know that it is physically impossible for the zigzags to be discharges because the photosphere is a plasma and plasmas can never support discharges.
 
Calculated Weight of the sun 1.9891×10^30 kg
iron 7.874 g/cc water = 1 sun = 1.4
Solar radius (6.95500 × (10^5) km) / 7.4 = 93 986.4865 kilometer thick shell
So now your claim is that the Sun is a 93 986.4865 kilometer thick iron shell with absolutely a perfect vacuum inside it?

:dl:
 
Any of you plasma sun proponents care to explain even the very first LMSAL image on my website??
We can: You have a delusion that these running difference images show a solid surface with mountain ranges.
You must also have some sort of memory disorder since the TRACE RD movie has been explained to you many times in the e;ectric universe theories thread.

...
  • the fact that a running difference animation is a representation of the changes in the original images. Thus any persistant features are records of changes in the original images. You cannot say whether a feature in an RD animation actually exists as the same feature in the original images until you inspect the original images. So there are RD animations with
    • "stars" corresponding to moving stars.
    • "mountain ranges" that are actually areas of cooling and heating plasma on either sides of flares.
    • "flying stuff" which is moving plasma from a CME that is also changing temperature.
    • "peeling stuff" which is moving plasma from a CME that is also changing temperature.

One of the unanswered questions in MM's 'iron sun without aether batteries' idea:
Can Micheal Mozina answer a simple RD animation question? First asked 10 July 2009
 
How about Kosovichev's doppler image? What are those rigid features I outlined in the image?
From your own web site:
I must note here that Dr. Kosovichev is a VERY, very nice person, but he in NO WAY endorses my views about there being a "solid" surface on the sun. In a recent email from Dr. Kosovichev, he explained these features in the following quote:
"The consistent structures in the movie are caused by stationary flows in magnetic structures, sunspots and active regions.
We know this from the simultaneous measurements of solar magnetic field, made by SOHO. These are not solid structures which would not have mass flows that we see.
These images are Doppler shift of the spectral line Ni 6768A.
The Doppler shift measures the velocity of mass motions along the line of sight. The darker areas show the motions towards us, and light areas show flows from us. These are not cliffs or anything like this. The movie frames are the running differences of the Doppler shift. For the illustration purpose, the sunquake signal is enhanced by increasing its amplitude by a factor 4."
 
FYI, for anyone actually following this thread, the sun's atmosphere is "layered" into various elements with the hottest and least dense layers on the outside and the "coolest" (relative term mind you) layers underneath. That is why the neon photosphere is cooler and more dense than the helium chromosphere, and why the hydrogen corona is the hottest and least dense layer of the sun.
FYI:
  1. How does the "mostly neon" surface emit white light? First asked 19 July 2009
    Now retracted for
  2. Entire photon "spectrum" is composed of all the emissions from all the layers First asked 3 August 2009
  3. Why neon for your "mostly neon" photosphere? First asked 30 July 2009
  4. Where is the "mostly fluorine" layer? First asked 30 July 2009
  5. What is your physical evidence for "mostly Li/Be/B/C/N/O" layers? First asked 30 July 2009
  6. What is your physical evidence for the "mostly deuterium" layer? First asked 30 July 2009
 
It's mostly solid, not necessarily mostly iron. The overall content including the core is mostly iron and nickel but the crust is simply a crust just like the Earth's crust, and not homogeneous in content.



I'm simply suggesting the crust itself is cooled by it's plasma atmosphere, it's under greater pressure than on the surface of the Earth, and the constant flow of particles away from the sun move heat away from the surface. The outer layers of the sun are progressively hotter and thinner than the layer closest to the crust. Heat is carried away from the crust of sun by the constant flow of particles away from the sun.


Uh huh, what amount of particles, what energy levels are needed and why isn't there IR radiation inwards? What stops the IR radiation?

Your magic refrigeration lacks an explanation to make it un-magical.
 
This from the guy who's best analysis of the images was "Flying stuff? What flying stuff?". Please. You haven't a lick of scientific credibility to your name after that ridiculous comment.


I have offered my analysis of various running difference images and videos many times on this forum and others starting more than 4 years ago. None of them amounted to "Flying stuff? What flying stuff?" Your comment is a lie. Still. Again.

Except for the fact I've created them including those STEREO images on my website. Have you even bothered to make one yourself? Yes or no?


Yes. Take two images, add 50% gray to the first one, then subtract the value of each pixel in the second image from the value of the corresponding pixel in the first image. The running difference output of that mathematical process is a graph where each pixel is a simple graphical representation of the calculated difference between the pixels in the first image and their counterparts in the second. For a video you use sequential frames, or frames a given distance apart, and make the mathematical comparison the same way. A running difference video is simply the series of processed output frames.

Once more, in case we have lurkers or newbies here: A running difference image is not a picture of anything real or tangible or solid per se. It is a graph, a chart, a visual representation of a series of mathematical calculations. The running difference images Michael tries to foist upon us as evidence of a solid surfaced Sun are no more pictures of the Sun's surface than a pie chart is an actual picture of blueberry pie or a bar graph shows a row of buildings.

One of the interesting things about a running difference image (BTW, they call them that for a reason) is the fact that any static features, anything solid or stationary, anything that doesn't change between the input images will show up as neutral gray in the running difference output. You won't see it.

If you have a series of weather images of clouds passing over Mt. Everest, and you create a running difference graph from those images, the output will show the change in location (maybe temperature, maybe moisture content, maybe density, depending on what the original images showed of course) of those clouds. But Mt. Everest, by nature of the fact that it didn't change from image to image in the originals, won't even show in the running difference output. That's how surface features are handled in the running difference processing.



So let's see if you did this correctly, you know, the way they do it at LMSAL to create the running difference graphs you imagine show a solid surface on the Sun...

Which images did you use as your input for the PM-A.gif image? What mathematical process did you apply to obtain your result? In that image, the pixel in column 1371, row 758 has a value of about 20% black. Why is it that color? (Prediction: I don't think you have the qualifications you claim and you can't answer this question because you don't understand running difference images. I predict a tantrum instead because blowing your problems off onto other people is one of your dishonest tactics to distract from the legitimate questions you can't answer.)

Where in that image do you believe you're seeing solid physical features? Why does no professional physicist on Earth agree that's what you're seeing? And perhaps most importantly, what is it about the creation process that makes you think you see physical features below the photosphere when the data gathered to create the original images was taken from thousands of kilometers above the photosphere?

Let's repeat that question right here, since you will likely ignore it. No excuses this time, Michael. None of your standard ploy of ignoring the questions that make you uncomfortable. This is apparently a very difficult thing for you to deal with because you've ignored it flat out for years. You claim that you're seeing solid surface features in running difference images.

In your image PM-A.gif, or any running difference image or video for that matter, what is it about the process of creating a simple graphical representation of a series of mathematical calculations that you believe allows you to see physical features below the photosphere when the data used to create the original images was taken from thousands of kilometers above the photosphere?

You see, you've been touting that very first image on your web site as being a sort of smoking gun for years now. If you can't explain (not assert but explain, support with evidence, describe in a plausible quantitative legitimately scientific way) how it actually shows what you claim it shows, then of course you'll agree that you should remove it from your web site and stop trying to use it to support your crackpot conjecture.

Let's see you "do" one.


Which pixel(s) in which images would you like me to use? Or which video?
 
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I have offered my analysis of various running difference images and videos many times on this forum and others starting more than 4 years ago. None of them amounted to "Flying stuff? What flying stuff?" Your comment is a lie. Still. Again.




Yes. Take two images, add 50% gray to the first one, then subtract the value of each pixel in the second image from the value of the corresponding pixel in the first image. The running difference output of that mathematical process is a graph where each pixel is a simple graphical representation of the calculated difference between the pixels in the first image and their counterparts in the second. For a video you use sequential frames, or frames a given distance apart, and make the mathematical comparison the same way. A running difference video is simply the series of processed output frames.

Once more, in case we have lurkers or newbies here: A running difference image is not a picture of anything real or tangible or solid per se. It is a graph, a chart, a visual representation of a series of mathematical calculations. The running difference images Michael tries to foist upon us as evidence of a solid surfaced Sun are no more pictures of the Sun's surface than a pie chart is an actual picture of blueberry pie or a bar graph shows a row of buildings.

One of the interesting things about a running difference image (BTW, they call them that for a reason) is the fact that any static features, anything solid or stationary, anything that doesn't change between the input images will show up as neutral gray in the running difference output. You won't see it.

If you have a series of weather images of clouds passing over Mt. Everest, and you create a running difference graph from those images, the output will show the change in location (maybe temperature, maybe moisture content, maybe density, depending on what the original images showed of course) of those clouds. But Mt. Everest, by nature of the fact that it didn't change from image to image in the originals, won't even show in the running difference output. That's how surface features are handled in the running difference processing.




So let's see if you did this correctly, you know, the way they do it at LMSAL to create the running difference graphs you imagine show a solid surface on the Sun...

Which images did you use as your input for the PM-A.gif image? What mathematical process did you apply to obtain your result? In that image, the pixel in column 1371, row 758 has a value of about 20% black. Why is it that color? (Prediction: I don't think you have the qualifications you claim and you can't answer this question because you don't understand running difference images. I predict a tantrum instead because blowing your problems off onto other people is one of your dishonest tactics to distract from the legitimate questions you can't answer.)

Where in that image do you believe you're seeing solid physical features? Why does no professional physicist on Earth agree that's what you're seeing? And perhaps most importantly, what is it about the creation process that makes you think you see physical features below the photosphere when the data gathered to create the original images was taken from thousands of kilometers above the photosphere?

Let's repeat that question right here, since you will likely ignore it. No excuses this time, Michael. None of your standard ploy of ignoring the questions that make you uncomfortable. This is apparently a very difficult thing for you to deal with because you've ignored it flat out for years. You claim that you're seeing solid surface features in running difference images.

In your image PM-A.gif, or any running difference image or video for that matter, what is it about the process of creating a simple graphical representation of a series of mathematical calculations that you believe allows you to see physical features below the photosphere when the data used to create the original images was taken from thousands of kilometers above the photosphere?

You see, you've been touting that very first image on your web site as being a sort of smoking gun for years now. If you can't explain (not assert but explain, support with evidence, describe in a plausible quantitative legitimately scientific way) how it actually shows what you claim it shows, then of course you'll agree that you should remove it from your web site and stop trying to use it to support your crackpot conjecture.




Which pixel(s) in which images would you like me to use? Or which video?

:popcorn1
 


Hang on to your seat, Perpetual Student. This is going to be good. Michael is going to show us all, finally, exactly how a running difference image/video is made. He will start with one of the 171Å or 195Å videos from the STEREO, TRACE, or SOHO program, apply his process, and the result will be very much the same as those created by the professionals who create those graphs for NASA and LMSAL.

Then he will explain how the finished graph shows features on a surface he claims exists below the photosphere even though the data used to create his image/video was gathered from thousands of kilometers above the photosphere.

You see, he claims to be qualified to analyze running difference images. He claims to understand their construction and what they represent. He claims that these images and videos are evidence of his crackpot notion because, as he claims, they show a solid surface. His claim to be qualified has been challenged, not just here but years ago on the BAUT forum and others. He has boldly asserted his claims to be true, but not once in all these years has he demonstrated the truth of his claims.

I'm sure that if he considers himself a legitimate scientist he will now be more than happy to put aside our concerns about his qualifications and actually show us that he is right and we are wrong. Maybe he can go to this page at the STEREO web site and download this video (171profile_zm_best.mov), for example. Then he can process it into a running difference video.

The result of his effort will of course show features thousands of kilometers below any of the data shown in the original video itself. His running difference video will look very much like the ones made by LMSAL and NASA, and not like a piece of crap made by applying the "Difference Clouds", contrast, and brightness filters in PhotoShop like the ones he tried to pass off as running difference images already...



I see you brought some :popcorn1 , Perpetual Student. You might want to pull up a comfortable chair. There's a prospective Nobel Prize winning scientist just about to come in here, finally after 5 years of people asking him to, and after 5 years of him badgering and taunting other people to do it, finally he's going to explain this stuff so we can see that he's not just hallucinating when he claims to see surface features in those running difference images on the front page of his web site!

Or not...
:dl:
 
[qimg]http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/171surfaceshotsmall.JPG[/qimg]

Care to explain these images?
20000404_1632_c2rdif.gif

Apparently there are giant mountains extending out from the "surface" of the sun like spokes.

Either that, or interpreting light and dark parts of a running difference image as terrain features doesn't actually work.
 
It's mostly solid, not necessarily mostly iron. The overall content including the core is mostly iron and nickel but the crust is simply a crust just like the Earth's crust, and not homogeneous in content.

Ok so now the surface is a bit mushy or "mostly solid" and made of 'unknownium' (since you apparently don't know what you want to claim it is made of). It does seem though that you are not asserting it to be a hollow sphere.

I'm simply suggesting the crust itself is cooled by it's plasma atmosphere,

Thus the problem, “simply suggesting” is not explaining.



it's under greater pressure than on the surface of the Earth, and the constant flow of particles away from the sun move heat away from the surface. The outer layers of the sun are progressively hotter and thinner than the layer closest to the crust. Heat is carried away from the crust of sun by the constant flow of particles away from the sun.

You do understand that heat energy (usually measured in calories) moves from a higher temperature to a lower temperature, don’t you? So your hotter “outer layers” would, well, heat up the inner layers. You might want to take a look at something called thermal equilibrium. You do understand that heat energy is also radiantly transferred in all directions, don’t you? It doesn’t need “particles” (other then photons) to “carry’ it anywhere including from your hotter outer layers to your “mostly solid” “crust”. For some bizarre reason you just seem to want to ‘simply suggest’ that “Heat is carried away from the crust of sun by the constant flow of particles away from the sun” without any regard for thermodynamics whatsoever. The only way that heat energy would only be emitted by your “crust” to your surrounding and particularly outer layers is if your “crust” was hotter than your surrounding layers and particularly your outer layers. You might what to also look at something called Maxwells demon as that seems to be what you are “simply suggesting”.
 
Cite the detection of your 93,986.4865 kilometer thick iron shell in helioseismology

I have speculated as to whats inside but I dont know.

All I have to go on is helioseismology.;)
First asked 6 April 2010
brantc
Can you cite the detection of your 93,986.4865 kilometer thick iron shell in helioseismology?
 
The next several posts promise to be REALLY entertaining! I've got my :popcorn1 , Ya'll should get yours ready, too!

Ever get a big rat trapped in a corner? They will either attack viciously or escape if they can find a way; they will NEVER surrender.

I predict MM will behave in exactly the same manner. (Probably escape by pretending he was never cornered in the first place!)

We'll see, won't we...


:dl:


Cheers,

Dave
 
My model seems to have been taken over at this point.

My model is a fully iron shell or solid. Rigid as shown in the difference images.
Those images show the changes in light from frame to frame. You have to start with a full frame to show changes. If its reflecting from a surface and the surface is moving, you will see the changes in light.
If the flare is moving from frame to frame, those are differences that you will see. You will not see changes below a certain arbitrary level of light. They use ionized iron light and show the differences from frame to frame with that light reflected or not.

The surface is as you see it.
It is just like a cathode glow with thermionic emission, as in the lab.

I have already described it mostly.

It acts like a transformer in that it transforms the background energy of the universe into "electricity" that manifests at the surface as electrical discharges.

There is no neutron star in my model, I dont even believe in neutronium.

No liquid involved(I'm pretty sure). Plasma discharges. I have seen the tsunami. I think that is a surface wave phenomena that shows up in the photosphere because it is a layered plasma.

For instance Ca first ionization level is 6.113 eV Thats 66,000 K.
Neon. 21.564 eV 21.56400 * 11 000 = 237 204K Gotta be a plasma.

The loops and the footprints I'm pretty sure are a million or so degrees.
Thats what makes the iron hypervelocity blobs and the coronal rain that cools and makes the features under the coronal loops and arcades.

I will watch from the sidelines and contribute when I can.
 
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