Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

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No Depression

Michael Mozina said:
[qimg]http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/15%20April%202001%20WL.gif[/qimg]

Limb images for starters. They all show a clear, persistent angular "depression" in the surface of the photosphere like the foreground sunspot.
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No they don't. There is no "depression" of any kind visible in this image.
 
phunk said:
No, they don't . Your brain is interpreting shading as hints to 3d structure in a situation where it's inappropriate.
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Actually, supercomputer simulations show the same 3D effect.

http://www.ucar.edu/news/releases/2009/sunspots.jsp#mediaterms
http://www.ucar.edu/news/releases/2009/images/bb.jpg
http://www.ucar.edu/news/releases/2009/images/by_B2_fast.mpg

The only question is one of "depth" (how deep can we see).

These aren't pictures of your backyard we're looking at, it's an environment completely alien to what your brain can interpret, and you're making incorrect assumptions based on shadows that aren't actually shadows.
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They are still simply white light images of a normal object. There's nothing all that unusual going on in the first place, and it's not as though there are no computer simulations to demonstrate the 3D effect. Even the GBAND image itself shows a series of "down hill flows" along the right hand side that are pretty difficult to miss frankly.
 
Tim Thompson said:
Since you have nothing more intellectual to add to the conversation than "wiggly stuff", you are poorly positioned to talk about other people and their "flying stuff". Sheesh.
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The ends of the filaments certainly "wiggle around' and light up and pick up light into the end of the filament where where it meets up with the dark umbra. I swear, this has to be the single least attentive to detail group of individuals I've ever met. Flying stuff? What flying stuff? White light images? What white light images? Sheesh.

We're getting lost now in what should have been a pretty straight forward conversation about the location of the loops and their visible interaction with the photosphere. Each of you seems intent on simply ignoring those Hinode images *entirely*.

http://solarb.msfc.nasa.gov/movies/xrt_pfi_gband_20061113.mpg

That images shows us the alignment between the coronal loops and the filament pattern:

http://solar-b.nao.ac.jp/QLmovies/movie_sirius/2010/03/14/FG_CAM20100314150429_174906.mpg

That image shows the effect the base of the filaments when the loops discharge through the filaments.

http://solarb.msfc.nasa.gov/movies/sakao.mpg

This movie shows the mass flows in the loops that is responsible for the penumbral filament effect we observe in the previous image.

There is simply no way in the universe that LMSAL positioning system is correct. It's visibly incorrect as all the Hinode images demonstrate, not to mention all the TRACE/Yohkoh images that also blow that positioning system away.

mossyohkoh.jpg


The "transition region" is located *UNDER* the photosphere.
 
Perpetual Student said:
Does that really make any sense? You have a theory of solar physics that is profoundly contrary to the mainstream perspective of experts. How peculiar that you strive to convert a non-specialist to your opinions the way a religious zealot might try to convert a naive non-believer.
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It has nothing to do with naivete, and everything to do with not having a vested interest or a preconceived set of beliefs. In debates with YEC proponents, I would often convince lurkers while making no headway at all with the YEC proponent. It's not related to being naive, just being "open to all ideas".

I would think if one had a potential Nobel prize winning theory, he would write scholarly papers for specialists to review, or write a book intended for experts.
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I've already been involved in 5 papers, and I'm sure I'll do more before it's said and done.

I noticed the same attempt to convert laymen to your crackpot theories on other threads. It is really pathetic!
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I wonder how many times that term has been used in this one thread? Does GM even make a post without a derogatory term in it? You folks rely on that "technique" like a crutch IMO.
 
D'rok said:
This makes sense to me. I can't imagine that I can use anything like my normal frame of reference for visual phenomena to analyze these images.
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Whereas I can't even imagine trying to understand the sun without looking at the images, and without make sure the images jive with the theory. It's not necessarily a "normal frame of reference" in the sense that most folks don't spend their free time digging around in Hinode, Trace, SOHO or other solar images looking through them for hours on end. :)
 
Michael Mozina said:
Actually, supercomputer simulations show the same 3D effect.
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Supercomputer simulations based on...

(wait for it)...

the standard solar model!

The irony of Michael using such simulations to support his own incompatible model is almost painful. Plus, of course, those images are visual representations of the simulation data. The captions make it quite clear that the data in question is NOT the brightness. In one image, the color represents magnetic field direction, and in another the color represents magnetic field strength. Lastly, of course, the existence of 3D structure in the sunspot does not require that any of this 3D structure actually be visible.
 
Ziggurat said:
Supercomputer simulations based on...

(wait for it)...

the standard solar model!

The irony of Michael using such simulations to support his own incompatible model is almost painful.
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Actually, both models predict cooler plasma under the photosphere and a convection process through the photosphere. We simply disagree about 'opacity'.
 
Michael Mozina said:
Actually, both models predict cooler plasma under the photosphere and a convection process through the photosphere. We simply disagree about 'opacity'.
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You also differ considerably about the composition and temperature of the plasma. Those are not minor details, Michael. And even regarding the opacity, those simulations don't actually help your case that the g-band images can see deep into the sunspots. Your citation of them was pointless, except to show that the standard model is in fact closing in on explaining sunspot structure, in far more detail than you have even begun to consider.
 
Ziggurat said:
You also differ considerably about the composition and temperature of the plasma.
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The density isn't likely to be much different in terms of overall plasma composition, and the temperatures wouldn't deviate much either. The "biggie" in terms of differences is related to the location of the loops.

Your citation of them was pointless, except to show that the standard model is in fact closing in on explaining sunspot structure, in far more detail than you have even begun to consider.
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Actually, the intent was to show the "Depth" component and from that standpoint it's helpful. Those Hinode images however simply destroy LMSAL positioning of the loops. They *MUST* originate under the photosphere.
 
What do you think the standard model of coronal loops predicts

Michael Mozina said:
http://solar-b.nao.ac.jp/QLmovies/movie_sirius/2009/12/20/FG_CAM20091220000037_142840.mpg

This one is particularly fun since it shows the loops coming up right in front of the umbra so you can see the contrast and see how the mass flow of the coronal loops comes up through the photosphere.
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First asked 20 April 2010
Michael Mozina,
What do you think the standard model of coronal loops predicts?

Perhaps you can cite all of the published papers that state that loops will never appear to be in front of unbra and there is no mass flow in loops.
Or maybe they all say:
  1. A coronal loop emerging into the photosphere though the umbra of a sunspot will appear "in front" of the umbra.
  2. As the coronal loop emerges it will fill with plasma - thus the mass flow through the loop.
Wiki
Coronal loops are the basic structures of the magnetic solar corona. These loops are the closed-magnetic flux cousins of the open-magnetic flux that can be found in coronal hole (polar) regions and the solar wind. Loops of magnetic flux well up from the solar body and fill with hot solar plasma. Due to the heightened magnetic activity in these coronal loop regions, coronal loops can often be the precursor to solar flares and coronal mass ejections (CMEs). Solar plasma feeding these structures is heated from under 6000 K to well over 1×10^6 K from the photosphere, through the transition region, and into the corona. Often, the solar plasma will fill these loops from one foot point and drain from the other (siphon flow due to a pressure difference, or asymmetric flow due to some other driver). This is known as chromospheric evaporation and chromospheric condensation respectively. There may also be symmetric flow from both loop foot points, causing a buildup of mass in the loop structure. The plasma may cool in this region creating dark filaments in the solar disk or prominences off the limb. Coronal loops may have lifetimes in the order of seconds (in the case of flare events), minutes, hours or days. Usually coronal loops lasting for long periods of time are known as steady state or quiescent coronal loops, where there is a balance in loop energy sources and sinks (example).
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