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Irish independence from the UK

Airfix

Graduate Poster
Airfix
Joined
Aug 11, 2016
Messages
1,047
Was that based on racism ? Sectarianism ? Or just the desire to be more democratic and self govern?

After 100 years has it been a success ?

I say it has, mostly.

Empires don't work.

Good luck to Ireland for another 100 years.
 
Empires work just fine, pretty much by definition. If it wasn't working, it would never have become an empire in the first place.

What empires probably don't do is last. But then, what does?

The Persian Empire worked. The Roman Empire worked. The Mongol Empire worked. The Ottoman Empire worked. The British Empire hella worked.

The Japanese Empire would have worked, but they were late to the game and lacked the resources to compete on a global level. The Soviet Empire worked for a time, and failed more because communism doesn't work than because empires don't work. And also because Russia got dealt a pretty weak starting position.

The post-industrial, post-modern, post-imperial American "empire" worked for most of the 20th century and is still doing alright today. It looks like China is lowkey setting up its own run at empire. That will probably work too, if its chief rivals and competitors let it get off the ground.
 
The UK was forcibly subjugated under EU dominion and suffered centuries of repression?

Sometimes things you can make to seem kinda the same if reduced to a sentence or two of description are actually nothing alike from a qualitative standpoint.

ETA: I have no horse in the race, but I imagine both unionists and nationalists would be insulted by the comparison.
 
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The Irish were invaded, occupied, taxed and governed undemocratically, they were mistreated, there was what appears to be a terror famine "to put them in their place" and the UK carried out war crimes during the civil war.

The way I see it is that the Irish were absolutely right to seek independence, what I don't understand, is why the north remained part of the UK?
 
Airfix said:
The Irish were invaded, occupied, taxed and governed undemocratically, they were mistreated, there was what appears to be a terror famine "to put them in their place" and the UK carried out war crimes during the civil war.

The way I see it is that the Irish were absolutely right to seek independence, what I don't understand, is why the north remained part of the UK?
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Can you state the full name of the UK Conservative party?

Do you know from where the planters came to NI?

If so, then you have your answer.

If not, you have some reading to do.
 
Officially, they are the "Conservative and Unionist party".

The planters came to NI from England and Scotland.
Oliver Cromwell had a role in it too.

But it doesn't change the fact that the UK unfairly occupied Ireland, denied human rights, starved people and killed people.

It was wrong, and being ashamed of that, doesn't change the fact that it happened.
 
Airfix said:
The Irish were invaded, occupied, taxed and governed undemocratically, they were mistreated, there was what appears to be a terror famine "to put them in their place" and the UK carried out war crimes during the civil war.

The way I see it is that the Irish were absolutely right to seek independence, what I don't understand, is why the north remained part of the UK?
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Thankfully that ended when Ireland joined the EU. The fair and equitable treatment they have received as part of the EU has resulted in Ireland going from being a lower ranked EU country in GDP per capita to being a higher ranked EU country in GDP per capita.
 
And it couldn't have grown economically without membership ?
I realise there's no "control" of a parallel Ireland, to compare to.

But if you look at the EFTA countries their GDP per capita appears to be higher than that of EU members.
 
abaddon said:
Can you state the full name of the UK Conservative party?

Do you know from where the planters came to NI?

If so, then you have your answer.

If not, you have some reading to do.
Click to expand...
:thumbsup::)

I really don't like Brits patronisingly wittering on about matters they don't comprehend.
It's worse when the engage in pathetic attempts at cultural appropriation to justify they own stupidity and wallpaper over their racism, bigotry and xenophobia.
 
Airfix said:
And it couldn't have grown economically without membership ?
I realise there's no "control" of a parallel Ireland, to compare to.

But if you look at the EFTA countries their GDP per capita appears to be higher than that of EU members.
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It had 70ish years of nominal independence without this happening, then the EU comes along and things change almost overnight.

Of course you could argue that Ireland wasn't really independent of British influence until the EU came along and gave everyone a common baseline of rules that gave them equal treatment for the first time
 
Airfix said:
The Irish were invaded, occupied, taxed and governed undemocratically, they were mistreated, there was what appears to be a terror famine "to put them in their place" and the UK carried out war crimes during the civil war.

The way I see it is that the Irish were absolutely right to seek independence, what I don't understand, is why the north remained part of the UK?
Click to expand...

Largely for reasons of religion. Northern Ireland was populated by British civil servants and administrators who were C of E, while the ROI was Catholic. The concern was that home rule would become "Rome rule".
 
catsmate said:
Indeed, an awkward fact for Brexiteers since support for Ireland leaving the EU is lower than that for London leaving the UK.
Which does seem more likely, actually.
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Really couldn't give a damn, so long as they are adequately democratically represented and happy with their lot in life.
 
lomiller said:
It had 70ish years of nominal independence without this happening, then the EU comes along and things change almost overnight.
Click to expand...

Have a read of this:
https://www.oecd.org/sdd/na/Irish-GDP-up-in-2015-OECD.pdf

On 12 July 2016, the Irish Central Statistics Office published its latest national accounts data for 2015, revealing that real GDP growth was up 26.3% from 2014 (and up 32.4% in current prices) These figures have attracted considerable attention in the international press, with commentators raising questions about their reliability and about the conceptual basis for the measurement of GDP.The main reason for the particularly high Irish GDP growth rates lies in the fact that in recent years, attracted in large part by low corporation tax rates, a number of large multinational corporations have relocated their economic activities, and more specifically their underlying intellectual property, to Ireland. As a result, sales (production) generated from the use of intellectual property now contribute to Irish GDP rather than to other countries’ GDP. Given the size of these companies, the boost to GDP growth has been correspondingly large.
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So it's not actually EU membership driving this gain in GDP, but attracting business through behaving like a tax haven. Will this last ?

Only Switzerland in the EFTA nations has a higher GDP per capita.
 
lomiller said:
It had 70ish years of nominal independence without this happening, then the EU comes along and things change almost overnight.

Of course you could argue that Ireland wasn't really independent of British influence until the EU came along and gave everyone a common baseline of rules that gave them equal treatment for the first time
Click to expand...

I also think the death of De Valera in the early 70's allowed Ireland to open up economically. Dev seems to have been obssesed with the idea of Ireland being primarily a rural,agricultural nation.
 
Airfix said:
The Irish were invaded, occupied, taxed and governed undemocratically, they were mistreated, there was what appears to be a terror famine "to put them in their place" and the UK carried out war crimes during the civil war.

The way I see it is that the Irish were absolutely right to seek independence, what I don't understand, is why the north remained part of the UK?
Click to expand...


Religion,frankly. The Protestents in Ulster were always treated much better then the Catholics in the rest of Ireland.

I think the partition was probably inevitable. No way were the Protestent Majority in Ulster going to voluntary join a Predomntly Catholic Government,and to try to coerce them would have resulted in a even greater blood bath. This has always been the weakness of the Pure Irish Republican VIew:just did not accept that reality.


I am an Irish American, and have no love for the UK in Ireland, but I still put the horrors of the Great Famine down more to incompetence then malice. Comparing it to the Terror Famine in the Ukraine under Stalin is overstating it a bit.
 
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Brainster said:
Largely for reasons of religion. Northern Ireland was populated by British civil servants and administrators who were C of E, while the ROI was Catholic. The concern was that home rule would become "Rome rule".
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It's a bit more complicated than that (everything is).
Norn Iron Protestantism is a mix of mainly Methodist and Presbyterian groups, with some Anglican (i.e. Episcopalians in the USA, specifically the Church of Ireland, which was distinct from the CoE and traditionally more socially liberal).
 
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