Irish independence from the UK

[catsmate]

...what I don't understand, is why the north remained part of the UK?

Then I suggest you educate yourself. Preferably before spouting off about matters you admit you don not understand.

 

[catsmate]

Then don't.

I'm Irish kiddo. And I have a doctorate in history. Don't play the patronising Brit with me.

 

[Airfix]

I also think the death of De Valera in the early 70's allowed Ireland to open up economically. Dev seems to have been obssesed with the idea of Ireland being primarily a rural,agricultural nation.

True, Éamon was very protectionist.

 

[Darat]

Then I suggest you educate yourself. Preferably before spouting off about matters you admit you don not understand.

You have to remember this is such an obscure part of the history of the British isles that has no impact on anything today that it’s nearly impossible unless you are an academic to get access to information on the history!

Seriously I am often astonished at the level of ignorance for a period of our shared history that has so much influence on current events.

 

[Airfix]

I'm Irish kiddo. And I have a doctorate in history. Don't play the patronising Brit with me.

A doctorate in history ?
All that means in practice is that you've got an award that shows you're proficient at using a library.
Well done, but all of us are still learning, until we die.

And the one who considers himself to not have much to learn, has the most of all to learn.

I do not pretend to know it all.
But I am interested.

So, if you could put your pride, your presumption, your anger and your racism to one side, and start discussing history, I would be interested to listen.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

^ Yeah, what Darat and Catsmate said!

 

[Airfix]

Religion,frankly. The Protestents in Ulster were always treated much better then the Catholics in the rest of Ireland.

I think the partition was probably inevitable. No way were the Protestent Majority in Ulster going to voluntary join a Predomntly Catholic Government,and to try to coerce them would have resulted in a even greater blood bath. This has always been the weakness of the Pure Irish Republican VIew:just did not accept that reality.


I am an Irish American, and have no love for the UK in Ireland, but I still put the horrors of the Great Famine down more to incompetence then malice. Comparing it to the Terror Famine in the Ukraine under Stalin is overstating it a bit.

Fair points, I do not profess to know all the details.

I am interested in learning more.

 

[catsmate]

I also think the death of De Valera in the early 70's allowed Ireland to open up economically. Dev seems to have been obssesed with the idea of Ireland being primarily a rural,agricultural nation.

Give the man a pack of Tayto C&O. His Gaelic Nationalism was a disaster.

Religion,frankly. The Protestents in Ulster were always treated much better then the Catholics in the rest of Ireland.

I think the partition was probably inevitable. No way were the Protestent Majority in Ulster going to voluntary join a Predomntly Catholic Government,and to try to coerce them would have resulted in a even greater blood bath. This has always been the weakness of the Pure Irish Republican VIew:just did not accept that reality.


I am an Irish American, and have no love for the UK in Ireland, but I still put the horrors of the Great Famine down more to incompetence then malice. Comparing it to the Terror Famine in the Ukraine under Stalin is overstating it a bit.

At the risk of repeating myself, it's more complicated.
The Protestants in Ireland were a mix of imported and conversion, with several sects. In the "south" the mainstream Anglican Church of Ireland predominated, initially as a local version of the Church of England but it liberalised notably compared to the latter.
In what we call North-East Ulster (the "six counties") there were more Methodists and Presbyterians in the Scottish mould.

This is probably a good time to point out that the mapping of Catholic/Protestant to Nationalist/Unionist is at best an inexact fit; many leaders of the historical revolutionary struggle for Irish independence were protestants. For example Wolfe Tone, Henry Joy McCracken, Lord Edward Fitzgerald, Archibald Hamilton Rowan, Valentine Lawless, James Napper Tandy and many more. In the '98 most of the leaders were Anglicans or Presbyterians.

A half-century later you had Thomas Davis, John Mitchel and William Smith O'Brien, whose "Young Ireland" movement was heavily protestant and often in conflict with Parnell. Parnell really initiated the identification of Ireland with Catholicism.

Later again you have Butt, Gray, Harrison, Jordan, McDonald, Plunkett and more. Around that time (late C19) you also saw the splitting of the Orange Order into two factions; the established Orange Order was effectively part of the Ulster Unionist Party and was aligned with the interests of landlords and employers (very much against the revolutionary spirit). As an aside, one thing that scared the bejeebus out of the NI establishment in the '30s was the development of a socialist movement that crossed sectarian lines. Unfortunately it fizzled out.

The Gaelic Revival of the late C19/early C20 period was heavily influenced by protestants; the first that comes to mind is, of course, Wilde the elder. But there were many others, Stokes, Ferguson, Æ, Yeats, Lady Gregory, O'Casey, Alice Milligan, Synge et cetera.

The opposition to Home Rule in NEU was as much economic as sectarian; a lot of the wealthy and powerful felt that their wealth and position were endangered by such a move. The parallels with Brexit are striking to those who've studied history; sectarian tensions whipped up to create a mass movement in the service of a small metropolitan economic elite.

BTW while there was a degree of "ethnic cleansing" in the south after independence most of the protestants in the cities were untouched and continued, for many years, to run parts of the civil service and serve in the Senate.

But I'm in danger of heading into lecture mode so I'll stop.

Thank you for your patience.

 

[Airfix]

Respect where it's due that was a very good post for once Catsmate.

When you're not doing confrontational aggression, you're worth listening to.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Was that based on racism ? Sectarianism ? Or just the desire to be more democratic and self govern?

After 100 years has it been a success ?

I say it has, mostly.

Empires don't work.

Good luck to Ireland for another 100 years.

Yes good luck to them and hopefully Scotland will throw off the yoke and enjoy their own independence too.

 

[catsmate]

You have to remember this is such an obscure part of the history of the British isles that has no impact on anything today that it’s nearly impossible unless you are an academic to get access to information on the history!

Interestingly Michael D. was writing about this recently.
Empire shaped Ireland's past. A century after partition, it still shapes our present

Seriously I am often astonished at the level of ignorance for a period of our shared history that has so much influence on current events.

True, I feel that way about a lot of subjects. People who don't study history don't see the parallels with current events and hence miss solutions to the problems of today, and tomorrow, be they nationalism, fascism, pandemics, economic disruption, the rise of new powers et cetera.

 

[Airfix]

No problem with Scotland doing that if they vote to.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Apart from being told by the English they can't decide for a 'generation' which seems to be a variable length of time designed to stop a vote.

 

[catsmate]

A doctorate in history ?

Yes, along with a second (older) Ph.D.(theoretical physics), three Masters degrees, a Moderatorship and a Grad.Dip. Plus my professional qualifications.

All that means in practice is that you've got an award that shows you're proficient at using a library.

Ah, the Cult of Ignorance at work. How typical of a Brexiteer.
The denigration of knowledge, experience, learning and expertise in the face of the "common man".

Well done, but all of us are still learning, until we die.

Well duh. Have you something to offer besides platitudes?

And the one who considers himself to not have much to learn, has the most of all to learn.

Oh I know how much I don't know. A Dunning and Kruger demonstrated so well, it is those who know very little who are wrongly arrogant in their little knowledge.

I do not pretend to know it all.

And yet you spout off nonsense...

But I am interested.

Then go and learn. You are living in the most information rich society in human history.

So, if you could put your pride, your presumption, your anger and your racism to one side, and start discussing history, I would be interested to listen.

Awwww, is someone feeling defensive?

 

[Airfix]

Apart from being told by the English they can't decide for a 'generation' which seems to be a variable length of time designed to stop a vote.

There has only been one referendum on the matter since the 1707 Act of Union.

13 years is not a long time to wait for another especially given that the consequences of such a referendum could last for thousands of years to come.

 

[Andy_Ross]

So let the Scots decide when they have it rather than impose it from England.
Maybe they should take a lead from the Irish, that would focus the attention of Westminster.

 

[Airfix]

The denigration of knowledge, experience, learning and expertise in the face of the "common man".

No, I am not denigrating your knowledge, I am denigrating your behaviour, your hubris, your prejudice and your racism.

 

[Airfix]

So let the Scots decide when they have it rather than impose it from England.
Maybe they should take a lead from the Irish, that would focus the attention of Westminster.

Fine by me.

 

[lomiller]

Have a read of this:
https://www.oecd.org/sdd/na/Irish-GDP-up-in-2015-OECD.pdf



So it's not actually EU membership driving this gain in GDP, but attracting business through behaving like a tax haven. Will this last ?

Corporations don't move their headquarters just anywhere. They need infrastructure, access to financial markets, access to capital markets and access to skilled employees and access to markets where their goods and services are sold.

Joining the EU provided Ireland allowed Ireland to be part of one of the largest economies on the planet, access to employees with specialized experience and skillsets. Ireland was already a very well educated country before joining the EU but business require specialized experience on top of that. Freedom of movement within the EU allowed those people to move to Ireland along with the business.

It would also be a mistake to suggest Ireland only attracted businesses from elsewhere. Once the existence of business in an area creates the knowledge of how to run and grow a business. Once critical mass is of skills and services are achieved it becomes possible to grow new business in a way that was previously difficult.

Lower taxes and a well educated population may have given Ireland a competitive advantage within the EU for attracting and growing business but that would have mean nothing without being in the EU in the first place.

 

[Darat]

Apart from being told by the English they can't decide for a 'generation' which seems to be a variable length of time designed to stop a vote.

Actually both sides used that as a rallying cry.