Iran Starts Enrichment

[webfusion]

Ooops (work accident)

• Friday morning, Abdel Muati Abu-Def, a bomb-maker from Hamas, was killed and another operative was wounded in an explosion inside a house in Gaza's Zeitun neighborhood. The blast apparently occured accidentally while Abu-Def was instructing Hamas operatives about bomb-making.

I wonder what would be the result if these clowns get their hands on nuclear bombs (even 'dirty bombs') --- I'm reminded of this famous Wil E. Coyote image:

 

[Ed]

• Friday morning, Abdel Muati Abu-Def, a bomb-maker from Hamas, was killed and another operative was wounded in an explosion inside a house in Gaza's Zeitun neighborhood. The blast apparently occured accidentally while Abu-Def was instructing Hamas operatives about bomb-making.

I wonder what would be the result if these clowns get their hands on nuclear bombs (even 'dirty bombs') --- I'm reminded of this famous Wil E. Coyote image:

Do you mean to say that Road Runner is ..... Jewish?

 

[webfusion]

well, KOSHER, anyway!

• Roadrunners are ground cuckoos, Geococcyx californianus -- scrawny, but definitely kosher.

 

[Mycroft]

No, it just shifts the focus to the already fulfilled nuclear ambitions of the USA and Israel - and thus away from the country that may or may not be trying to make a nuclear device that may or may not be an attempt to defend itself against the nuclear ambitions of the US vassal in the Middle East.

Uhm, what's with the "US vassal" crap? What exactly does that mean to you, and what's your evidence to support it?

And what evidence do you have that Iran needs to defend itself from any nuclear power?

 

[Mycroft]

"they" being the so-called "Axis of Evil", a name given to them for mere decorum and not because the USA in any way wants to destroy them, right?

Are you claiming the US wants to destroy Iran just for the sake of it?

Evidence?

 

[dann]

OK. There is no problem with Islamic fundimentalists, swornd to destroy Isreal, who think it peachey keen to kill themselves in the service of Allah and who have missles that can reach western Europe having nuklear devices. Your logic and moral equivilization are quite sound.

Carry on.

There is no problem with a powerful nation whose nuclear missiles can reach every little village in the entire world, which is why every little incident which it doesn't approve of appears to it and its allies as a loss of control and therefore dangerous and evil. When opposition to this regime and its control of your immediate neighbourhood, even if you live on the other side of the earth, is impossible (you cannot get at the aircraft carriers placed outside your ports) in any other form than the impotent rage of suicide bombers or suicide hijackers using planes as bombs to get at more or less random civilians (tourists etc.), the only thing that the loyal subjects of this regime register is the fundamentalism of the people ready to kill themselves.
The logic and moral equvocation of your fundamentalism? Well ....

 

[dann]

Are you claiming the US wants to destroy Iran just for the sake of it?
Evidence?

Who said anything about "the sake of it"? Evidence?

 

[Mycroft]

Who said anything about "the sake of it"? Evidence?

By all means, clarify.

 

[gtc]

How much evidence do you need for something that obvious? The weird thing is (well, it isn't really weird at all) that nobody seems to care what it's like to be a Moslem in Denmark these days - xenophobia in Denmark being what it is. We hear reports all the time about Danes fearing to go on holidays to Moslem countries like Egypt (so many reports that Egypt now has to start a new campaign to convince the Danes that they have nothing to fear) - in spite of the fact that no Dane has been hurt by Moslems after the publication of the stupid cartoons.

150 people have died as a result of a couple of cartoons, but you don't think Danes should be worried, because no Danes have actually been killed yet?

Despite graffiti like this appearing in the UK.

And protests like this.

Of course none of this matters, its not like people are prepared to use their religion to justify random attacks on Jews
or Israel or authors or commuters or office workers or anyone who is the wrong religion and it probably won't be Denmark which gets nuked over this as Iran blames the Jews.

Really we should not be sympathetic toward the Danish people, but angry that they are cancelling their holidays.

 

[Elind]

Just wait a few posts, they'll come out of the woodwork. Or maybe we'll just get the "well the US, Israel and Pakistan have the bomb, so Iran can get one too if they want" crowd.

Somewhere in the archives from 2 years ago or so there are such posts from Europeans who wanted to give "negotiations" and "inspections" a chance. I said then that Iran would screw them, and I still say Iran will screw everyone who wastes time talking to them. It's the nature of the animal. Seems obvious to me.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

I find the whole situation blackly comical.

Iran is building nuclear weapons to deter a possible US invasion. The US is trying to build political support for an invasion because Iran is building nuclear weapons.

If only there was some way to convince Iran that the USA was not planning to invade, and to convince the rest of the world that Iran was not planning to build nuclear weapons. A strong UN that conducts inspections of Iranian nuclear facilities and keeps the USA in check perhaps?

I don't like the idea of Iran having the bomb one bit, but at the same time I can't actually fault the action of attempting to acquire the bomb in order to preserve the safety and security of Iran from likely invasion by a nuclear power. Given the examples of Iraq and North Korea, a government the USA does not like would have to be stupid not to want nuclear weapons.

This issue is an excellent example of how trying to make the world a safer place by unilaterally invading other nations on flimsy pretexts is to some extent a self-defeating approach.

 

[David Swidler]

Kevin, do you really believe Iran would stop pursuing nuclear weapons if the US stopped trying to prevent it?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Kevin, do you really believe Iran would stop pursuing nuclear weapons if the US stopped trying to prevent it?

No, but I don't think that is the right question to ask. It is not so much about the US trying to prevent them having nuclear weapons as the US threatening to invade them.

If they did not have good reason to fear a US invasion then I think they could be persuaded to halt production with the right carrots and sticks. They did before, as I recall.

(Assuming they are indeed pursuing nuclear weapons of course. It seems likely to me they are, but then again it seemed likely to lots of people that Hussein had WMDs).

 

[a_unique_person]

It's Pre-WWI all over again. Chest thumping, patriotism, fervent masses. After a few million die in war, everyone gets tired of it very quickly.

 

[Ed]

I find the whole situation blackly comical.

Iran is building nuclear weapons to deter a possible US invasion. The US is trying to build political support for an invasion because Iran is building nuclear weapons.

Maybe. Bin Laden has also spoken about reversing the reconquista. I would say that on balance the radical Islamic verbiage would suggest anything but a defensive use of nukes. They really do want to take over the world.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Maybe. Bin Laden has also spoken about reversing the reconquista. I would say that on balance the radical Islamic verbiage would suggest anything but a defensive use of nukes. They really do want to take over the world.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what offensive use would the handful of fission bombs they could conceivably manufacture have?

They don't have ICBMs, the only local target (Israel) has a much more mature nuclear weapons programme, and even if Israel's weapons all vanished overnight the USA could still drop a hydrogen bomb on every mildly significant Iranian city with the push of a button.

The only use I see for an Iranian bomb is to threaten to use it in the event of a US or Israeli invasion. The popular fantasy of terrorists smuggling a bomb into the USA is just silly, as the risks and rewards simply would not be worth it.

 

[Ed]

Maybe I'm missing something, but what offensive use would the handful of fission bombs they could conceivably manufacture have?

They don't have ICBMs, the only local target (Israel) has a much more mature nuclear weapons programme, and even if Israel's weapons all vanished overnight the USA could still drop a hydrogen bomb on every mildly significant Iranian city with the push of a button.

The only use I see for an Iranian bomb is to threaten to use it in the event of a US or Israeli invasion. The popular fantasy of terrorists smuggling a bomb into the USA is just silly, as the risks and rewards simply would not be worth it.

A small bunch of people who seemingly do not care about their own lives appear to be poised to throw Iraq into chaos. I think that your western-centric notions of strategy and tactics are misplaced.

 

[NeilC]

The only use I see for an Iranian bomb is to threaten to use it in the event of a US or Israeli invasion. The popular fantasy of terrorists smuggling a bomb into the USA is just silly, as the risks and rewards simply would not be worth it.

I really cannot see how you can say that. The reward would be total devastation of city in the country they hate beyond all else. The risk would be life in prison. To people who are prepared to kill themselves readily it's hardly much of a risk.

 

[dann]

So no evidence at all then? Thought as much.

More evidence:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/02/17/60minutes/main1329944.shtml
"I'm scared," Qureshi replied. "I think there are a lot of Muslims that are afraid that they could be turned into scapegoats, and people would say that the reason that the world hates us is because you people are telling bad stories of Denmark. We have to take the ball away from the extreme groups in Denmark and put it in the middle where the rest of us are."
But that middle is fast disappearing into fantasies of fear. Many Muslims are afraid of being victimized.

Need any more, mbp?

150 people have died as a result of a couple of cartoons, but you don't think Danes should be worried, because no Danes have actually been killed yet?

So far the 150 people were all Moslem protesters, I think, and not Danes or even Norwegians, probably shot by the police or trampled under foot in the riots. Not that this isn't bad enough!
On my own behalf I'm worried because Denmark has a premier who at first seemed unable to make up his mind what to say about the cartoons and now, after his conversations with Bush, has decided to be a hard-liner. No matter what he says, it's stupid and rather dangerous to the Danes - but even more so to the Moslems when you consider that he is just a minor player in international politics.
At first he seemed to enjoy posing as the fearless idealist standing up for freedom of speech against the hordes of medieval, primitive infidels - to the extent that he even ignored appeals by ambassadors from Moslem countries who merely asked for a meeting with him to discuss the cartoons. When the ◊◊◊◊ hit the fan and the Danish industrials started to complain that their market in the Middle East was threatened by a boycot of Danish products, he was apologizing all over the place, even going to the Middle East to distance himself from the cartoons on TV. Then he was on the phone with Bush, something that he was obviously very proud to tell the world. Bush apparently told him to stand firm against the Moslems in the 'Clash of Cultures', which appealed to him as the good little boy scout that he is. Yesterday he then criticized everybody who not only dislikes the cartoons but has also said so openly: industrialists, writers and newspaper editors. A year ago he criticized the opportunism of the Danish politicians (not least the members of his own party) who did not stand up to the Third Reich in WW2 - a very safe thing to do 65 years later! There is probably nothing that he'd like more than proving himself the brave Bush ally, and a suicide bomber or two in the subway system in Copenhagen would sure look good on his resume. Unlike me he doesn't use the Copenhagen subway anyway.
The Danish soldiers in Iraq aren't too crazy about the cartoons or the political bravado of the loyal Bush ally in Copenhagen, but like the American soldiers they're under contract to be there. Unfortunately the Danish premier isn't.

Despite graffiti like this appearing in the UK.

Kill Danes .... what would you expect? 'Make love, not war'??!

And protests like this. Of course none of this matters, its not like people are prepared to use their religion to justify random attacks on Jews or Israel or authors or
commuters or office workers or anyone who is the wrong religion and it probably won't be Denmark which gets nuked over this as Iran blames the Jews.

I know! It's not like American ministers, priests and rabbis would even consider blessing the troops and their armour. They are just too holy to do a thing like that, the clergy of the enlightened Western religion.

Really we should not be sympathetic toward the Danish people, but angry that they are cancelling their holidays.

Who's talking about being angry? I think that the Egyptians who depend on tourism are worried about the Danish and Norwegian cancellations, not because they love Scandinavians, but because they make their livelihood catering to European tourists from the cold Northern Europe. It's a question of business.

I can see how the Cartoon Controversy comes in handy in the present situation when the USA is preparing for its war against Iran. The WMD excuse is no longer as good as it used to be just a couple of years ago. In order to make the masses accept and even join another one of those, they have to be persuaded that this is a cause that somehow concerns them and not just the politicians and the industrialists. So the new catchwords "a Clash of Cultures" and "Freedom of Speech" are ideal. If it weren't for the Cartoon Controversy Bush would have had to invent something like that. Hitler dressed up his soldiers in Polish uniforms and had them shoot at the German border. Somebody dressed like an Al Quaeda warrior setting off a bomb in Copenhagen would be extremely helpful to the war effort. With the Cartoon Controversy it should be possible to get the genuine article - which is probably the reason why the patriotic Americans all seem to love the Danish flag even more than the star-spangled red, white and blue for the time being.
And the Danes are too stupidly patriotic to notice what is going on ...

 

[Kerberos]

If it weren't for the Cartoon Controversy Bush would have had to invent something like that. Hitler dressed up his soldiers in Polish uniforms and had them shoot at the German border. Somebody dressed like an Al Quaeda warrior setting off a bomb in Copenhagen would be extremely helpful to the war effort.

This is ridicilous, before the Iraq war some people predicted that Bush would smuggle American non-conventional weapons into Iraq if no Iraqi ones were found, but this is even more bizare. Why on Earth would Bush run the risc of impeachment, imprisonment and most likely the virtual obliteration of the Republican party in the next election? All it requires for that plan to be revealed is for if even one of the people he involved in such a ridicilous plan had even a thread of decency, or for the Danish police managed to trace the crime back to the US governement. Far simpler and smarter to invade citing Iran's nuclear program as the reason, and at worst riski that the Democrats gain some votes.