Iran Navy to Patrol US Borders

[Alferd_Packer]

It is my understanding that the Iranians have three Kilo class diesel boats.

They are rather small and not really suited for long range patrols.

 

[fuelair]

It's funny that zero posts have cited the Iranian submarine contingent; or how submarines can basically render any above-water Navy dead.

Sonar plus. You really think an Iranian sub can hide from what we have for them - well actually, for countries with real Navies?

 

[Andy_Ross]

I spent years patrolling the Atlantic on Leander Anti Submarine frigates.
At the time they were the best AS ships afloat anywhere. A nuclear boat we would have heard miles off and had our Wasp overhead dropping a torpedo or nuclear depth charge (if the ◊◊◊◊ had really hit the fan and it was a missile boat) Or we would be engaging with the Ikara AS missile launched torpedo system.
Other Nuclear Boats were the main AS weapon though. Diesel Electrics were reserved for work close inshore on recon missions etc.
I assume AS systems have improved over the years whereas old Russian Diesel Electric boats have deteriorated.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I think our government strictly limits foreign navies when it comes to our ports. I remember touring a Canadian destroyer back in the '90's during Seattle's Seafair and it seemed to me only small arms were available to the crew, locked up. The big ammo magazines were empty IIRC.

When we visited the USA we had full magazines 4.5 ammo, missiles, small arms Torpedoes, Limbo Depth Charges and even the 'Special Weapons' Magazine may have been loaded. Although policy was never to confirm or deny and we weren't supposed to know, it was obvious when they were put aboard. We came in several times as part of STANAVFORLANT and once as Caribbean Guard Ship.

 

[Caper]

I think when the ship gets here... the US should just take it... then give the sailors a replica of Theodore Tug boat and make them take it back.

 

[jj]

I don't think that Iranian navy have any nuclear powered submarines; only diesel, which makes getting them to the US coast problematic. Diesel subs are also pretty loud and AFAIK relatively easily detectable.

Actually, modern diesel electric subs are (*(*& quiet when running on battery.

But they'd have to get close enough to be able to work on battery range.

 

[jj]

I think when the ship gets here... the US should just take it... then give the sailors a replica of Theodore Tug boat and make them take it back.

Naah. Offer them amnesty.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Naah. Offer them amnesty.

Or 72 virgins.


Could we find 72 virgins?

 

[Octavo]

Actually, modern diesel electric subs are (*(*& quiet when running on battery.

But they'd have to get close enough to be able to work on battery range.

Ah, thanks for that. I was under the faulty assumption for some reason that the diesel engines were always running.

 

[Dragoonster]

My impression is that while submarines do present certain challenges to any navy, the question of their dead-rendering capabilities is not nearly as basic, or as definite as you seem to believe.

Would you be willing to share your reasoning here?

I couldn't quickly find any links, but recall single subs destroying carriers and others and otherwise winning engagements in international Naval wargames simulations. Sometimes laughably so.

It was hyperbole, admittedly. But...what weapon on a US or any ship can locate, track, and preempt a torpedo? Plenty of advancement on air-to-ship and ship-to-ship missile defense--but torpedo defense? [not rhetorical question--is there such?]

Let's just say Iran has 20 old-fangled electric subs. Each fires one torpedo at 6 different ships. Just what are those ships going to do about it? And keep in mind no submarine has ever destroyed any other submarine in history. So preemption by subs towards subs may not be a best approach.

And, wasn't suggesting Iran has a blue water sub capability. Was more thinking about their defensive capabilities towards a US fleet invading Iranian waters.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Interdiction is the key in ASW, I think. "Find 'em first." There are tools to spoof torpedoes, but I don't know which ones are declass'd right now.

 

[Dragoonster]

Oh I do remember one, though not involving subs. US Lt. General defeats US Navy with minimal (based on Iran fwiw) forces; US Navy then pretends that didn't happen and rewrites rules in order to triumph:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002

Red received an ultimatum from Blue, essentially a surrender document, demanding a response within 24 hours. Thus warned of Blue's approach, Red used a fleet of small boats to determine the position of Blue's fleet by the second day of the exercise. In a preemptive strike, Red launched a massive salvo of cruise missiles that overwhelmed the Blue forces' electronic sensors and destroyed sixteen warships. This included one aircraft carrier, ten cruisers and five of six amphibious ships. An equivalent success in a real conflict would have resulted in the deaths of over 20,000 service personnel. Soon after the cruise missile offensive, another significant portion of Blue's navy was "sunk" by an armada of small Red boats, which carried out both conventional and suicide attacks that capitalized on Blue's inability to detect them as well as expected.

At this point, the exercise was suspended, Blue's ships were "re-floated", and the rules of engagement were changed

...and so Blue/US Navy won...

Van Riper also claimed that exercise officials denied him the opportunity to use his own tactics and ideas against Blue Force, and that they also ordered Red Force not to use certain weapons systems against Blue Force and even ordered that the location of Red Force units to be revealed.

I love doing this in Age of Empires and Baldur's Gate. Reload buttons and save points rock!

 

[Andy_Ross]

Your sub would have to get in to a position to fire.
Modern Nuclear subs main task is to destroy other subs.
You are taking a very WW2 view of things

As for Wargames, what was the objective of the 'game'?
I have taken part in an where we were protecting a task force. It was being attacked by a sub that was supposed to sink one of the ships. We detected it, identified which individual sub it was and dispatched our Wasp which destroyed it before it got anywhere near torpedo range, didn't count as we were supposed to lose.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Your sub would have to get in to a position to fire.
Modern Nuclear subs main task is to destroy other subs.
You are taking a very WW2 view of things

They could "probably" destroy the Iranian Canoe Club without leaving the peir.

As for Wargames, what was the objective of the 'game'?
I have taken part in an where we were protecting a task force. It was being attacked by a sub that was supposed to sink one of the ships. We detected it, identified which individual sub it was and dispatched our Wasp which destroyed it before it got anywhere near torpedo range, didn't count as we were supposed to lose.

This one's easy. Suicide ship approaching US coast. ID/Interdict/Incinerate. (Pronounced "Aye-aye-aye.")

 

[Foolmewunz]

I like the idea of welcoming them. Send out fireboats with streams of colored water (rainbows, of course) and meet them around the Azores. Keep flashing signs to them to encourage them on.


"I Think I Can"

"I Think I Can"

"I Think I Can"


Then have Obama meet them on the docks in Norfolk and congratulate them for accomplishing roughly 1/3 of what Fernando Magellan accomplished 500 years ago, then look at the captain and say, "Hmmm? You remember how that trip ended for Magellan?" And then fist-bump him and say, "Just kiddin' bro! You guys want asylum or you wanna get back in that can and leave. Oh, and since it's clearly - as you've proven - "open ocean", we're going to send a couple of the Ticonderoga Class along with you to make sure no bad guys give you any trouble."

 

[JoeMorgue]

Yes given a lot of luck a Kilo Class could sink a large American surface combatant....

... which would within days lead to the the other nearly 300 surface combatants, submarines, and aircraft in the United States Navy turning the entire Iranian Navy into a lovely matched set of artificial reefs and almost certain large scale military action against the rest of the Iranian Military up to and possibly including turning Tehran into a smoking isotope riddled glass crater.

"X weapon system could defeat superior Y weapon system in scenario Z" is fine in a vacuum, but engagements don't happen in a vacuum.

Could Iran do some sort of ballsy attack that would be successful in and off itself against a superior American vessel? Sure. History is full of such incidents.

Could they do it in absolutely anyway that would actually reduce or really even effect America's ability to ensure the overall conflict wouldn't end very, very, very poorly for them? No.

Again Operation Praying Mantis offers a real world scenario. The Iranian Navy was able to take a single American vessel, the Frigate USS Samuel B. Roberts, out through the use of a form of crude, cheap asymmetric warfare, in this case an obsolete WWI era surplus Soviet M-08 Naval Mine.

This attack happened on April 14. By sunset on April 18 Iran no longer had a functioning Navy. And the Sammy B was repaired, returned to service, and is still active today.

I'm sure they could make something like that happen again if they really want to go through it again.

 

[Cleon]

It's funny that zero posts have cited the Iranian submarine contingent; or how submarines can basically render any above-water Navy dead.

From what I can tell, most of Iran's submarine force are tiny diesel-electric boats with crew complements of a couple dozen, designed for short deployments. They simply don't have the range to reach US shores, and whether they could operate well in a deep-water setting is questionable.

The only boats they have capable of that kind of range are three old Soviet Kilo-class subs. Even if SOSUS didn't let the US Navy hear a fish fart in Madagascar, there's only so much damage these boats could do before being taken out.

 

[catsmate]

To be honest, I think it's probably worth bragging about. Having a system of naval operations capable of deploying a vessel on a long-range cruise is no mean feat. It is a notably first-world privilege to have navies of such size and power that we are able to take such a thing for granted. And apparently even the US Navy has ships that cannot deploy across the Gulf of Mexico without breaking down.

Can the Iranian navy go toe to toe with the US navy, at home or abroad? Probably not. Is it still a feat worth boasting about, to deploy a naval vessel from Iran to US territorial waters? I think so.

It should be interesting. Thanks for the book BTW I've ordered it.

The Iranian Navy currently operates 6 frigates. None of which comes close to the size or capability of the US Navies 15 FFG's. And then there are our 84 DDG's and CG's. And 10 nuclear powered aircraft carriers that are significantly larger than any other carrier in the world, and 9 amphibious assault ships which are essentially smaller aircraft carriers with a well deck. Oh and also 54 attack submarines and 18 boomers. I'm sure the US Navy brass are worried sick over the Iranian Navy.

I don't know the Perrys were still around, though given the LCS debacle it's not really surprising.

Doubt there are perverts involved, but there's probably one shadowing them right now. My guess it is one that doesn't need to surface, goes faster than the Frigate, and has more teeth than a great white.

Subs aren't great when you want to keep in constant contact though, as in politically sensitive situations.

My Jetski can do 54MPH, and it's small and old. Newer ones can go in the 70's. Cigarette boats top 100MPH easily. How many warships do you know that can maintain those speeds?

Muzzle velocity of a 76x900mm shell is about 900m/s.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I like the idea of welcoming them. Send out fireboats with streams of colored water (rainbows, of course) and meet them around the Azores. Keep flashing signs to them to encourage them on.


"I Think I Can"

"I Think I Can"

"I Think I Can"


Then have Obama meet them on the docks in Norfolk and congratulate them for accomplishing roughly 1/3 of what Fernando Magellan accomplished 500 years ago, then look at the captain and say, "Hmmm? You remember how that trip ended for Magellan?" And then fist-bump him and say, "Just kiddin' bro! You guys want asylum or you wanna get back in that can and leave. Oh, and since it's clearly - as you've proven - "open ocean", we're going to send a couple of the Ticonderoga Class along with you to make sure no bad guys give you any trouble."

Yeah, I don't even think we need to be an ass about it. Just say "welcome, where would you like to put in?"

I really think it would take the wind out of their propaganda sails.

ETA: It's a bit like a 8 year old threatening an MMA fighter. Sure, the kid maybe could get in one good hit, but is that really likely once he gets close enough to see what he is against? The fighter would be stupid to even go into an obvious fighting stance, kneeling down and extending a hand for shaking his hand would be more appropriate.

 

[dudalb]

I don't think the Iranians are going to let their rustbucket frigate dock at a US port. Most of the crew would desert in about five minutes....