Iran Navy to Patrol US Borders

[Dragoonster]

It's funny that zero posts have cited the Iranian submarine contingent; or how submarines can basically render any above-water Navy dead.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

It's funny that zero posts have cited the Iranian submarine contingent; or how submarines can basically render any above-water Navy dead.

If they get the chance, that is. And, IIRC, the USN has some small practice at anti-submarine warfare. The threat is negligible, but the practice is good.

 

[Octavo]

It's funny that zero posts have cited the Iranian submarine contingent; or how submarines can basically render any above-water Navy dead.

I don't think that Iranian navy have any nuclear powered submarines; only diesel, which makes getting them to the US coast problematic. Diesel subs are also pretty loud and AFAIK relatively easily detectable.

 

[Cuddles]

Assuming this is true, it is perfectly obvious it could not be intended to provide a threat to the US. I wonder if we are perhaps missing the point of the gesture?

Not everyone has missed the point:

I suspect this is entirely for a select Iranian audience.

Very little of what Iran, or any other country for that matter, does actually has anything to do with the USA at all. Iran knows perfectly well that they can't actually challenge the US militarily, all the posturing is about internal politics. It's the same when you look at somewhere like Venezuela. Maduro knows perfectly well that no other country takes his nonsense about the CIA causing toilet paper shortages seriously, but it's not aimed at any other country, it's aimed at scoring political points and keeping himself in power by getting voters to blame problems on anything other than him.

Similarly, Iran know that they can't hurt the US and that the US aren't actually going to invade, but by pretending to make a military show of things they can score points with some of the people in their country who might actually be fooled by such things. Just look at some of the hilarious photoshops that have already been mentioned. Who is that aimed at fooling, the people who actually know about such technology and are very familiar with fake photos, or the people who have never heard of photoshop, don't own a computer and have no access to external media?

It's easy to dismiss some people as nuts because of the nonsense they come out with. But before doing so, it's important to consider whether you are actually the target audience. If the intended target actually believes, or can be convinced by, said nonsense, announcing it for the world to hear can actually be a perfectly rational move.

 

[Doubt]

It's funny that zero posts have cited the Iranian submarine contingent; or how submarines can basically render any above-water Navy dead.

Probably because the Iranian Navy has only sent two surface ships with no indicators that submarines have been sent at all. The names of the two surface ships are known Iranian press releases have been overstating their abilities.

Then there are the limitations of Iranian subs. Old Russian non-nuclear subs. If they were moving with the surface ships they would be extremely detectable since they would be running their engines with snorkels up and even then would have trouble keeping up with the surface ships.

The idea the submarines can render above-water Navy dead is a bit of hyperbole. Under the right circumstances, any surface ship is vulnerable to any submarine. Much time, effort and thinking is dedicated to mitigating that threat. Those that are fond of such phrases as "there are only two types of ships; Submarines and targets" might not realize how little truth there is in that statement.

Submarines have been vulnerable to air detection and attack for a very long time. Especially true for diesel-electric boats that need to recharge their batteries often. Add in newer detection techniques such as satellite based systems and the sub becomes a weapon with huge limitations if the other side has a space program or good land based aircraft system.

There was once talk about adding stinger anti aircraft missiles to periscope masts. Might work against helicopters but there are also fixed wing aircraft that don't need to get that close. There might be other ways to employee anti-aircraft weapons such as sensor and missile canisters launched from torpedo tubes and missile tubes. But that is speculation and even if they exist deploying them would likely give away the subs position before a missile could get in the air.

The most useful thin Iran can do with it's sub fleet is to use it for ambushes at choke points. The sub would have to sit on the bottom and wait for a target while staying quiet. Not moving would help avoid detection. Not really helpful for a show the flag operation which is what they are trying to do right now.

 

[Doubt]

This is a conversation where we could really use Darth Rotor. This is his area. We have some disagreements about carriers, however. But his background does, IIRC, include hunting submarines via helicopter.

 

[JoeMorgue]

The most useful thin Iran can do with it's sub fleet is to use it for ambushes at choke points. The sub would have to sit on the bottom and wait for a target while staying quiet. Not moving would help avoid detection. Not really helpful for a show the flag operation which is what they are trying to do right now.

Which has always been the Iranian Navy's goal anyway. Even back at the peak of its power it never had true Blue Water capabilities. It existed for two reasons as a limited regional power, to patrol the Iranian Coast and to choke point the Straits of Hormuz and for that small missile ships and diesel-electric subs are fine.

A stunt cruise across the ocean to play the military equivalent of putting a bag of flaming dog poop on your neighbor's door step doesn't fit in with their military abilities or their military mentality.

 

[Doubt]

Which has always been the Iranian Navy's goal anyway. Even back at the peak of its power it never had true Blue Water capabilities. It existed for two reasons as a limited regional power, to patrol the Iranian Coast and to choke point the Straits of Hormuz and for that small missile ships and diesel-electric subs are fine.

A stunt cruise across the ocean to play the military equivalent of putting a bag of flaming dog poop on your neighbor's door step doesn't fit in with their military abilities or their military mentality.

If the Iranian revolution had taken place they would have had at least one of these ships:

http://navysite.de/dd/ddg993.htm

Better armed than the Spruance class destroyers it was based on which were also being built for the US Navy at the same time.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

This is a conversation where we could really use Darth Rotor. This is his area. We have some disagreements about carriers, however. But his background does, IIRC, include hunting submarines via helicopter.

Did he ever drive a LAMPS?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Yeah but the Kidd Class were already middle of the roaders, lacking the Aegis System or real power projection capability. Four decent but not top of the line Destroyers does not a true Blue Water Navy make. And since Iran even if they had been able to take order of them wouldn't have been able to modernized them to the same degree the US has been able to. I can't imagine a hypothetical currently fielded Iranian Kidd Class Destroyer being an issue to an American Carrier Strike Group or Destroyer Squadron.

Not even to bring up that the Frigate/Destroyer/Cruiser distinction is getting more and more massively muddy every day.

 

[Doubt]

Did he ever drive a LAMPS?

I don't know for sure. I know he has Carrier experience but not sure what years. Likely Oceanhawk experience from the Carriers but I don't know if they really count that as LAMPS.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Not even to bring up that the Frigate/Destroyer/Cruiser distinction is getting more and more massively muddy every day.

Been that way since Old Ironsides.

 

[Doubt]

Yeah but the Kidd Class were already middle of the roaders, lacking the Aegis System or real power projection capability. Four decent but not top of the line Destroyers does not a true Blue Water Navy make. And since Iran even if they had been able to take order of them wouldn't have been able to modernized them to the same degree the US has been able to. I can't imagine a hypothetical currently fielded Iranian Kidd Class Destroyer being an issue to an American Carrier Strike Group or Destroyer Squadron.

Not even to bring up that the Frigate/Destroyer/Cruiser distinction is getting more and more massively muddy every day.

All true. But Aegis was stuck in development when those were built and they would have been much more of a problem than what Iran ended up with. Iran with Kidd class destroyers would at least have a non-trivial air defense ability. Although it would have been interesting to see those ships equipped with knock-off version of Chinese anti-ship missiles. (Based only on appearance the original Chinese missiles themselves look like knock-off versions of harpoon missiles.)

 

[JoeMorgue]

And that's really the x factor.

A modern military ship is a not a fighting ship, it is a weapons platform. A kickass radar and some modern missiles on a 50 year old hull could be more effective in combat then a shiny brand new supership armed with second rate weapons.

That's why modernization is so important. Most of our major surface combats are pretty old in literal design, but the weapons are constantly being upgraded.

 

[sloinker]

I imagine that there is already an American sub trailing the Iranians warships. Unlike them, our subs are pretty hard to detect if we want them to be. I don't think the active sonar on those ships is adequate or the dipping sonar from a chopper if they are so equipped. Our satellite technology coupled with existing sea sensors, drones, ASW platforms on planes etc have already rendered the Iranian threat as insignificant. Everyone knows this I suppose except possibly a population without access to the internet such as the North Koreans. I believe that Iran still allows its population access to the internet minus the porn iirc.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Wouldn't the best response be to welcome them? I mean, very publicly let the world know that we would be willing to help if they need anything and if they could let us know what port they would like to pull into we could try to work something out.

I assume we let our allies into port occasionally, and we are not at war with Iran at the moment.

So let the mullahs know that we are standing by to welcome their ships. Even offer some pizza delivery if necessary.

From my experience nothing takes the bark out of a dog like letting them off their chain. Actually catching a passing car was never their goal.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You show more trust than I could muster for them.

 

[sloinker]

Wouldn't the best response be to welcome them? I mean, very publicly let the world know that we would be willing to help if they need anything and if they could let us know what port they would like to pull into we could try to work something out.

I assume we let our allies into port occasionally, and we are not at war with Iran at the moment.

So let the mullahs know that we are standing by to welcome their ships. Even offer some pizza delivery if necessary.

From my experience nothing takes the bark out of a dog like letting them off their chain. Actually catching a passing car was never their goal.

I think our government strictly limits foreign navies when it comes to our ports. I remember touring a Canadian destroyer back in the '90's during Seattle's Seafair and it seemed to me only small arms were available to the crew, locked up. The big ammo magazines were empty IIRC.

 

[Seismosaurus]

It's funny that zero posts have cited the Iranian submarine contingent; or how submarines can basically render any above-water Navy dead.

That rather depends on the submarines in question, and the above water navy in question.

 

[theprestige]

It's funny that zero posts have cited the Iranian submarine contingent; or how submarines can basically render any above-water Navy dead.

My impression is that while submarines do present certain challenges to any navy, the question of their dead-rendering capabilities is not nearly as basic, or as definite as you seem to believe.

Would you be willing to share your reasoning here?