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Intelligent Evolution?

Nobody asks if a watch is natural or artificial. And it is helpful to a great many people to understand that the complexity we see in today's technology (such as computers) evolved based on information that was tested in the environment before--

Just like genomes building organisms and testing them in their environment which is responsible for the complexity we see in organisms such as ourselves. I know that you can't get it. But the analogy is really only "unhelpful" to people such as yourself--which are few and far between from what I can tell and hard core creationists whose salvation depends upon them not understanding.
 
articulett said:
No, a thousand times no. The result of evolution is living things that effectively perpetuate themselves. That present life forms include highly complex creatures is nothing but an incidental emergent property. Evolution is not trying to build fast, sleek, strong, smart animal, Evolution is creating things that are good at perpetuating themselves. Televisions are not made to perpetuate more televisions.
What happens to this statement when machines are designed to perpetuate themselves? Couldn't artifical intelligence allow them to make improves on the original design? I know that nothing like that is going to happen soon, but it seems a pretty sure bet that it will.

if you follow your link you get:

He does. He's talking about the information evolving... just like software evolves and genomes evolve-- the vectors themselves are static... but the information is modified through time. Information for building humans is refined through time based on what gets passed on (what works) and information for building machines is honed the same way... but the machines themselves nor individual humans do not evolve--but so long as the information making them sticks around, future models can be built on present information.

That was what I was referring to.
 
lightcreatedlife, if you follow the link

Whilst jimbob et al are content to proclaim intelligence of the creator more important than the consequences of the design instance they are going to forever simply assert:

"Intelligence here, non-intelligence here: different."
I do not proclaim an intelligence of a creator. However if you are proclaiming that systems which obviously did have designers (computers etc.) evolved, then you are stating that some system design which changed over time due to intelligent input, evolved. Can't you see that the IDers saying that biological systems changed over time due to intelligent input, is the same as idea of what evolution is.

Are you trying for a different use of the word "Evolution" to that in the Theory of Evolution? I would accept that you are using a colloquial definition, just that it is utterly unhelpful when discussing biological evolution, or the theory of evolution applied to other systems.
There are only so many ways I can say the same thing: I have abstracted away intelligence. It is not considered. They then will complain that I don't consider intelligence. They don't understand the argument. They are not responding to any of the maths - only the words. And they don't seem to be getting the point that when you add intelligence you don't get any more power than evolution. That's a powerful argument against the ID crowd.

ImaginalDisc and others have shown how the different processes of intelligent design (by human-level inteliigences) and evolution have different outcomes, and different trajectories.

If you use this to compare fossil history, and current organisms, then you see evidence for Evolution, and no evidence for an intelligence, certainly none that is more intelligent than humans. Saying that you know of examples of bad design doesn't invalidate the point.
 
However if you are proclaiming that systems which obviously did have designers (computers etc.) evolved

I'm claiming there is no 'obviousness' about it - certainly not from the end-product. The end-product DOES NOT have any information about how it was designed. None at all. Your computer does not hold within it all the information about the creators, their experiments, analysis, computers they based the design on etc... These are all inferences.

Can't you see that the IDers saying that biological systems changed over time due to intelligent input, is the same as idea of what evolution is.

I think I've already adequately explained this but YES. This is the whole damn point jimbob - we see idosyncrancies in biological systems that are hard to explain from the perspective of assuming a human-like designer would have been involved. This is due to how we think a design should look because we like to abstract things into modular components we can understand and reason about separately. Nature does not.

The point is not that intelligent input COULD NOT have been involved - very strictly speaking, the point it that it is not necessary (this is what Occam's Razor is all about) and certainly doesn't help explain things that we find to be poor examples of design. But the way you have strictly delineated it you can't explain why there are examples of what appears to be good design unless an intelligence was involved.

The point I'm making here is that there IS a large degree of cross-over.
 
I have a lot of catching up to do; I believe this thread has grown by five pages since Friday.

I would hazard to guess that Jimbob is still spot-on, aticulett is still claiming that design is a good analogy for evolution, and that cyborg and southwind are still equivocating wildly and failing to grasp the principles of an unguided, unordered selection process whereby reproduction is the only discriminating factor between forms that propogate and those that don't, how that fundamentally different process produces fundamentally different things from design.
 
I see you still don't know what equivocation actually is ID. Your inability to switch levels is not my fault.
 
I'm claiming there is no 'obviousness' about it - certainly not from the end-product. The end-product DOES NOT have any information about how it was designed. None at all. Your computer does not hold within it all the information about the creators, their experiments, analysis, computers they based the design on etc... These are all inferences.
Looking at the history of succeding generations, one could probably have a fair guess as to whether something evolved, or was designed. Indeed one can often see similarities in style and can spot artefacts that have a common designer, or design school. Kamov Helicopters tend to have coaxial contra-rotating blades, whilst aerospatiale ones tend to have fan-in-fin, fenestron rotors.

Of course they are based on inferences, what is your point?

In any almost any normal conversation with someone, I think the consensus view would be that it is obvious that cars and aeroplanes are designed. Why else are there job adverts for Automotive design engineers? Even if the people you are talking to don't have the in depth knowledge to appreciate that there is a job title of "Automotive design engineer", they will still know that designers exist. If they are British, they might have heard of R J Mitchellthe "designer" of the Supermarine Spitfire.


I think I've already adequately explained this but YES. This is the whole damn point jimbob - we see idosyncrancies in biological systems that are hard to explain from the perspective of assuming a human-like designer would have been involved. This is due to how we think a design should look because we like to abstract things into modular components we can understand and reason about separately. Nature does not.

The point is not that intelligent input COULD NOT have been involved - very strictly speaking, the point it that it is not necessary (this is what Occam's Razor is all about) and certainly doesn't help explain things that we find to be poor examples of design. But the way you have strictly delineated it you can't explain why there are examples of what appears to be good design unless an intelligence was involved.

The point I'm making here is that there IS a large degree of cross-over.
Now moving closer to my area of knowledge: IC design, especially analogue design.

The components are modeled mathematically, and circuits designed with component values set as a result of calculations, these circuits are then tested in simulation before being committed to silicon. Because designers are notomniscient, these designs tend to rely on the properties of the components that are well modelled, and easily understood by humans.

It is also possible to use evolutionary algorithms, especially if the design is realised on an FPGAWP
The results of the evolutionary algorithms are often more efficient (lower silicon cost etc) but they are far harder to analyse, because there was no analysis used to create the circuit design. It is easy for a trained eye to spot the differences between a human-design and one using an evolutionary algorithm.

This is still not evolution, because the intelligent agency determined from the start what the successful "design iteration" would do, if not how it would do it


But the way you have strictly delineated it you can't explain why there are examples of what appears to be good design unless an intelligence was involved.

Why? If poor features are possible with evolution, so are good ones.

I don't actually like talking about the "function" of an evolved structure, as that implies forethought. The human eye sees, but the white of the eye also happens to be used as a signal.
 
Oh, the irony. Using one word two ways is the dictionary definition of equivocation.

No. Using two words in two ways to describe something at two different level of abstraction is not equivocation.

It is not equivocation to say: "cars and cats evolved," it is equivocation to say, "cars (in the specifics of human technical evolution) and cats (in the specifics of biological evolution) evolved (therefore human technical evolution and biological evolution are the same thing)."

The voices are not equal ID. Yet again I urge you to understand what an abstraction is.

Of course they are based on inferences, what is your point?

My point is that such inferences ARE NOT RELEVANT at the level of abstraction being discussed. They do not exist in the domain of discourse.

Until you understand this you will keep on banging your head against the wall trying to figure out why I am trying to say two obviously different things are the same.

Cats are not dogs. A tiger is not a lion. Heathcliff is not Garfield.

The results of the evolutionary algorithms are often more efficient (lower silicon cost etc) but they are far harder to analyse, because there was no analysis used to create the circuit design. It is easy for a trained eye to spot the differences between a human-design and one using an evolutionary algorithm.

I believe I've already said this.

This is still not evolution, because the intelligent agency determined from the start what the successful "design iteration" would do, if not how it would do it.

Cats are not dogs. A tiger is not a lion. Heathcliff is not Garfield. Atoms are not intelligent. Humans are.

I don't actually like talking about the "function" of an evolved structure, as that implies forethought.

No, it implies afterthought.

The human eye sees, but the white of the eye also happens to be used as a signal.

Knifes happen to be used as can openers.
 
No. Using two words in two ways to describe something at two different level of abstraction is not equivocation.

It is not equivocation to say: "cars and cats evolved," it is equivocation to say, "cars (in the specifics of human technical evolution) and cats (in the specifics of biological evolution) evolved (therefore human technical evolution and biological evolution are the same thing)."

You're not abstracting. You're attempting to draw some comparison between two entirely unlike processes and are using "evolution" two different ways, pretending you are using it in only one way.
 
huh?
you're actually arguing for intelligent design here.
technology only evolved through progressive improvements in design made by intelligent beings.

Just to remind people of another supporter of the OP...
 
You're not abstracting. You're attempting to draw some comparison between two entirely unlike processes and are using "evolution" two different ways, pretending you are using it in only one way.

*Sigh* The process ARE alike at the right level of abstraction ID.

I mean, do you accept that if we are talking at the atomic level then the processes are indistinguishable? Remember, at the atom level we cannot talk about 'cats' and 'cars'. We can only talk about carbon and iron.

Does carbon and iron have any difference in a cat and a car?

Just to remind people of another supporter of the OP...

Just to remind jimbob that plumjam's logic is faulty.
 
*Sigh* The process ARE alike at the right level of abstraction ID.

There is no level of abstraction at which design and evolution are similar, because the processes involved are fundamentally different in every possible way.
 
Oh, the irony. Using one word two ways is the dictionary definition of equivocation.

Using design as both a noun and a verb is NOT an equivication, silly. The word IS used as both. It's the lack of pasticity in your thinking that makes you unable to understand a very useful analogy. I think it's more than obvious that people like both cyborg and Southwind understand evolution better than you and Jim Bob and could convey it better and simpler to most anyone. They understand and can sum up with the top people in the field are saying on the subject. You guys do not understand the difference between the result and the information (recipe, blue print, genome, insertions, directions, etc.) that contain the information that produced the result. It's too bad--because you can learn very much about how things came to be by just knowing what came before and having a clue about how information systems (like the internet) evolve.

Genomes, like the internet, are evolving systems of information. They do not need to be planned out to evolve--they evolve because "successful" info. is copied, added to, inserted, and modified-- with or without intent--ALL THE TIME.

I already know I've been successful using southwind's analogy-- so has cyborg... and so has Dawkins and Steven Jones. To my trained ears, Southwind is much clearer and less garbled than both you and jim bob who seem to be saying a lot of nothingness that shows an inability to understand even the basic difference between "recipes" and what results from following the "recipe". They are different things. You can change one... but you can't select for or against any ingredients until you actually make the product.

But of course--in your fuzzy head... info. is the same as what it produces and stuff involving a naked primate is prima facie "designed" and all the rest is "naturally selected". You guys sound thick to me. Is there anyone in your actual reality or any authors in the field who communicate effectively on the subject but sound like you guys? I no of none.
 
There is no level of abstraction at which design and evolution are similar, because the processes involved are fundamentally different in every possible way.

And the fundamental difference between carbon in a cat and carbon is a car is...?
 
Using design as both a noun and a verb is NOT an equivication, silly. The word IS used as both. It's the lack of pasticity in your thinking that makes you unable to understand a very useful analogy. I think it's more than obvious that people like both cyborg and Southwind understand evolution better than you and Jim Bob and could convey it better and simpler to most anyone. They understand and can sum up with the top people in the field are saying on the subject. You guys do not understand the difference between the result and the information (recipe, blue print, genome, insertions, directions, etc.) that contain the information that produced the result. It's too bad--because you can learn very much about how things came to be by just knowing what came before and having a clue about how information systems (like the internet) evolve.

Genomes, like the internet, are evolving systems of information. They do not need to be planned out to evolve--they evolve because "successful" info. is copied, added to, inserted, and modified-- with or without intent--ALL THE TIME.

I already know I've been successful using southwind's analogy-- so has cyborg... and so has Dawkins and Steven Jones. To my trained ears, Southwind is much clearer and less garbled than both you and jim bob who seem to be saying a lot of nothingness that shows an inability to understand even the basic difference between "recipes" and what results from following the "recipe". They are different things. You can change one... but you can't select for or against any ingredients until you actually make the product.

But of course--in your fuzzy head... info. is the same as what it produces and stuff involving a naked primate is prima facie "designed" and all the rest is "naturally selected". You guys sound thick to me. Is there anyone in your actual reality or any authors in the field who communicate effectively on the subject but sound like you guys? I no of none.

I'm sorry, but I can't parse your post.

ETA: Ok, I'll take at a stab at it.

You claim than "successful" "info" reproduces. Wrong. Success is measured, in Evolution, by reproduction. In Evolution, propogation is the only "success," and even that, I hasten to add, is anthropomorphization. Evolution does not require intelligent actors, design does. There is no way in which the process that gave rise to an airplane and the process that gave rise to an ant are similar. The only place Evolution enters into the explanation for airplanes is in the explanation for the designer.
 
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