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Intelligent design's predictions

Heads up to wowbagger, mijo is a creationist

Heads up Wowbagger, articulett is lying.

Believeing that evolution is a stochastic process does not make me a creationist.

Believing that evolution cannot occur because it is a stochastic process would make me a creationist or at least and evolution denier.

I do the former and not the later.
 
To reiterate Dawkins review of Behe's book:

First Dawkins quotes a passage of the tome:

The crucial passage in “The Edge of Evolution” is this: “By far the most critical aspect of Darwin’s multifaceted theory is the role of random mutation. Almost all of what is novel and important in Darwinian thought is concentrated in this third concept.”

And then he goes in for the kill.

What a bizarre thing to say! Leave aside the history: unacquainted with genetics, Darwin set no store by randomness. New variants might arise at random, or they might be acquired characteristics induced by food, for all Darwin knew. Far more important for Darwin was the nonrandom process whereby some survived but others perished. Natural selection is arguably the most momentous idea ever to occur to a human mind, because it — alone as far as we know — explains the elegant illusion of design that pervades the living kingdoms and explains, in passing, us. Whatever else it is, natural selection is not a “modest” idea, nor is descent with modification.

Dawkins is someone whom many conveys understanding of evolution to many.... Behe is one who confuses understanding of evolution for many.

When you see someone trying to equate evolution with randomness-- you've got someone who does not understand nor can they convey natural selection to anyone. You've got Behe, T'ai, and Mijo.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/01/books/review/Dawkins-t.html
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/bios/dawkins.html
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/selfish06/selfish06_indexx.html#ridley

Here is Behe's amazon blog for those interested in how the creationist mind spins reality: http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/A3DGRQ0IO7KYQ2
 
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Look mijo you bring this **** up every time and you have been shown every time that your view is basically pointless. Why are you attached to labels so?
 
The IDers need a new tack. This "gosh, that's pretty durn complicated to have evolved by random mutations" shtick is getting tired. I suggest they pick one designed biological mechanism and point out the part where god poked the genome to hack the mechanism into existence.

~~Paul
Well, doesn't his new book suggest that god made malaria or something?

For a divine entity, he sure is a slow, bumbling, wasteful, cruel, inefficient and unnecessary tinkerer.
 
If it's not "random" then how is it not so is the more important point - i.e. if we're going to distinguish the process of evolution from the process of frying an egg we'd better be a little more specific than simply saying the processes are "not random."
Okay, good enough point!

Evolution is a process by which cumulative adaptations take place, that are driven by the fitness landscape. Each "step" of the adaptation could yield several varieties of small mutations that lead to the next "step" in the adaption. Each possible mutation has a very likely probability of occurring. Which one actually gets selected is driven by the environment (or "fitness landscape") the life form happens to be in.

The end result could look like a complex, improbable structure, to the layman. But, only until that person investigates the history of the environment and the life form's genome, to uncover the cumulative steps that lead to it.

I could go on, if anyone needs it. Any further questions?

Actually, that's where you're wrong. Each phenotype confers a probability of survival upon its possessor and that makes natural selection random by definition.
Depends on your definition of random. It's the multiple meanings of that word that make be abhor it, when discussing evolution.

By using the word in a different context, I could legitimately say that natural selection is NOT random, by definition, because each gene's survival is dependent on the how the fitness landscape treats the collective phenotypic effects of all the genes in the life form. (generally speaking)

T'ai Chi is not wrong when he say the evolution is random because it is a stochastic process; he is wrong when he says that evolution by natural selection cannot happen because it is random.
Again, it depends on the definition of "random". But, in the context of T'ai Chi's signature, he seems to think evolution is worthy of contempt, because it is "random".

T'ai Chi can correct me if I am wrong about the contemptuous nature of his sig, though.


Heads up to wowbagger, mijo is a creationist.
You seem to accuse a lot of people of being "creationists". I don't think that word means what you think it does.

Where does mijopaalmc indicate that he is a creationist?
 
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Where does mijopaalmc indicate that he is a creationist?

It's the code words... you'll see. Behe will say he isn't a creationist either. It's the insistence than evolution really is random... that Dawkins is wrong and unclear when he says that natural selection is not random and that whatever it is they are saying is somehow more clear. It's mostly the inability to convey natural selection ... the way they confuse more than clarify... ask questions they don't want the answer to... dis Dawkins at every turn. I could give you links if you want--check out the threads he's started with smarmy loaded questions of the creationist type. I'm just trying to keep you from getting into digression land regarding whether evolution is random-- but pay no heed to me.

There are some people who sound an awfully lot like Behe... and I've just been around it so much that it jumps out at me-- Mijo is one of those people. But maybe someone somewhere will tell me something that Mijo has helped clarify for them.

Some people explain things and converse so that both of you seem to be learning more and some people seem to use a lot of words but never quite say anything. Behe, for example.

(And calling someone a creationist isn't nearly as bad as calling them a liar. I promise you I've never called anyone a creationist who hasn't called me something worse first.) What do you make of people who insist on using randomness to describe evolution... and what do you think of Dawkins commentary on this bizarre insistence? To me, another clue is when they use Behe terminology such as continually referring to the cell as the replicator rather than the DNA... they confuse the ability for a beneficial mutation to get itself copied with an organisms ability to copy it's genetic information. There is just this funny way they have of implying certain things without actually saying anything... like the way Behe' infers there is something wrong with evolution without offering an iota of anything for any alternative theory.
 
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Cyborg said:
Look mijo you bring this **** up every time and you have been shown every time that your view is basically pointless. Why are you attached to labels so?
Evolution shall be random.

~~Paul
 
Do you honestly believe that biologists use Ev as proof that information can arise from evolution?

A better question is do you honestly believe that IDers hold that "god poked the genome".

(Aside to others: Note Paul's use of "god" and "biologists". Not so subtly suggesting that people who believe in ID hold a designer to be god, and also cannot be biologists.)
 
T'ai said:
A better question is do you honestly believe that IDers hold that "god poked the genome".
Either that, or they believe that god set it all up at the beginning so that it would progress naturalistically in the exact way it has progressed. But the trouble with this scenario is succinctly specified in my second sig line.

By all means, tell us what you think happened.

(Aside to others: Note Paul's use of "god" and "biologists". Not so subtly suggesting that people who believe in ID hold a designer to be god, and also cannot be biologists.)
Can you find me a rational IDer who holds that the designer is something other than god? It doesn't count to find an IDer who won't take a stand at all. My statement about biologists was completely separate and I made no implication about IDers as biologists.

~~Paul
 
Nope, no one would be so silly as to suggest any sort of poking.

http://www.islamic-world.net/intldes.php

When God decides the time is right to create biological life He commands that His Will be done and sends messengers of Light from the spiritual existence to the physical universe instructing the necessary molecular forms He had already created to join together in the new, more complex relationship of simple biological life.

~~Paul
 
Mijo said:
So you found that all-elusive piece of evidence that demonstrates all individuals of given phenotypes survive while all individuals of other phenotypes perish?
Mijo, we've had this conversation before. You know what I mean when I say that some people insist "evolution shall be random." I mean that they insist on calling it random without additional clarifying explanation for the newbies. And that is precisely what T'ai's sig line says.

Why do you suppose some people insist on starkly terse statements that mislead people?

By the way, it could be the case that some individuals survive and some perish for entirely deterministic reasons.

~~Paul
 
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Mijo, we've had this conversation before. You know what I mean when I say that some people insist "evolution shall be random." I mean that they insist on calling it random without additional clarifying explanation for the newbies. And that is precisely what T'ai's sig line says.

Why do you suppose some people insist on starkly terse statements that mislead people?

By the way, it could be the case that some individuals survive and some perish for entirely deterministic reasons.

~~Paul

I was mislead by your starkly terse comment

I apologize.
 
There is just this funny way they have of imply certain things without actually saying anything... like the way Behe' infers there is something wrong with evolution without offering an iota of anything for any alternative theory.

And that seems to be the single most powerful part of their strategy. It allows others, who are even less informed, to make statements such as
"I'm just not convinced by the evolutionary hypothesis."
"There are just too many holes in the theory of evolution..."

The funny part is that they masquerade with a skeptic's aire, knowing that incredulity is a typical position a scientist will take. But it's like watching a 1 year old pound on the keyboard. He's pretending to be daddy and may convince other 1 year olds that he is, but he isn't actually writing anything.
 
It's the code words... you'll see. Behe will say he isn't a creationist either.
His actions speak louder than his own words, though. There is plenty of evidence demonstrating he is a Creationist, if he admits it or not. Intelligent Design, after all, implies the basic gist of creationism.


It's the insistence than evolution really is random... that Dawkins is wrong and unclear when he says that natural selection is not random and that whatever it is they are saying is somehow more clear. It's mostly the inability to convey natural selection ... the way they confuse more than clarify... ask questions they don't want the answer to... dis Dawkins at every turn. I could give you links if you want--check out the threads he's started with smarmy loaded questions of the creationist type. I'm just trying to keep you from getting into digression land regarding whether evolution is random-- but pay no heed to me.
I think this is more of a semantics battle, than a creation vs. evolution battle. Just because we are arguing what is "random" or not, does not necessarily mean one of the parties must be a creationist!

It seems Mijo thinks evolution is valid, he just disagrees on what constitutes randomness in it.


Some people explain things and converse so that both of you seem to be learning more and some people seem to use a lot of words but never quite say anything. Behe, for example.
Just because someone uses a lot of words, without "saying anything", does not automatically mean the person is a Creationist. I think you are jumping the gun.

A creationist is one who thinks life could not have emerged naturally, but had to be created by some pre-existing outside entity of some sort. Behe is searching for one, true. But, near as I can tell, Mijo is not, (based on his posts here, anyway).

(And calling someone a creationist isn't nearly as bad as calling them a liar. I promise you I've never called anyone a creationist who hasn't called me something worse first.)
You should call people what they are. If you find evidence that someone knowingly told a mistruth, you can call them a liar. Not all liars are creationists. Not all creationists are really liars: some are delusional.

What do you make of people who insist on using randomness to describe evolution... and what do you think of Dawkins commentary on this bizarre insistence?
It depends on what you mean by Random. Dawkins, himself, used the word, when he says evolution is "Non-random adaptation from random mutations". But, he then goes on to explain those mutations are only "random" as to whether or not they will benefit the life form.
For this reason, I prefer to use "indifferent", instead of "random". But, whatever.

To me, another clue is when they use Behe terminology such as continually referring to the cell as the replicator rather than the DNA... they confuse the ability for a beneficial mutation to get itself copied with an organisms ability to copy it's genetic information. There is just this funny way they have of imply certain things without actually saying anything... like the way Behe' infers there is something wrong with evolution without offering an iota of anything for any alternative theory.
Just because someone erroneously thinks the cell is the ultimate replicator in contemporary life forms, instead of the gene; does not automatically make one a Creationist.
Until I read The Selfish Gene, and other material about genetics, I thought the cell was the ultimte replicator, as well. And, I was never a Creationist.

Evolution shall be random.
Well, if Paul declares it so, then that means it must be true!! :rolleyes:

A better question is do you honestly believe that IDers hold that "god poked the genome".
IDers hold that something must have been poked at. They just cannot seem to figure out what it could possibly be. (All their examples keep getting explained by evolutionary biologists, all the time. Kinda annoying, don't you think?)

(Aside to others: Note Paul's use of "god" and "biologists". Not so subtly suggesting that people who believe in ID hold a designer to be god, and also cannot be biologists.)
Until you can identify what the nature of the Intelligent Designer is, we might as well use the shorthand "god" in the meantime. I am sure the Designer would be honored, no matter what its true nature actually is. :rolleyes:
 
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A better question is do you honestly believe that IDers hold that "god poked the genome".

(Aside to others: Note Paul's use of "god" and "biologists". Not so subtly suggesting that people who believe in ID hold a designer to be god, and also cannot be biologists.)

What? Actually the only people who believe in ID are people who have religious or religious type reasons for doing so-- they're people who don't understand natural selection and why it renders a god unnecessary. Sure, you can add all the invisible entities to the equation that you want to-- gods, demons, engrams... but in order for that to be science, you have to prove such entities exist. Otherwise, occams razor disposes of the riff raff, obfuscations, irrelevencies, and word games-- we aim for the facts that are the same for everybody so we can understand more and take that knowledge further. Belief that "magic" is responsible doesn't exactly encourage further exploration. Imagining that something is beyond human understanding, assures that it will be... at least for the humans who subscribe to such notions. Religion has never discovered any great truth before science... and tends to get in the way of further discovery. Science clarifies. Religions obfuscates and pretends that the mystery is something magical.
 
And that seems to be the single most powerful part of their strategy. It allows others, who are even less informed, to make statements such as
"I'm just not convinced by the evolutionary hypothesis."
"There are just too many holes in the theory of evolution..."

The funny part is that they masquerade with a skeptic's aire, knowing that incredulity is a typical position a scientist will take. But it's like watching a 1 year old pound on the keyboard. He's pretending to be daddy and may convince other 1 year olds that he is, but he isn't actually writing anything.

Yes... and it's all about making people think they can't understand... which pisses me off. I like Dawkins and Randi because they show you that there is no "magic understanding"-- no higher truths... they give you the tools you need to help you understand-- I have no patience for the smarmy dishonesty disguised as "academic rigor" or "technical correctness" etc. I like how Sagan gives you a way of understanding the stuff he knows. And I chafe at those who purposefully obfuscate understanding because they imagine themselves teachers while being impervious to what they have yet to learn. Behe could understand evolution--but he bends over backwards to make sure he doesn't understand it and others don't either so that he can use his pedantry to pretend like he's saying something of value while saying nothing at all. He never really says what exactly he believes...never proffers a claim you can test--he just casts aspersions on evolution and hopes that people see that as merit for a designer. He won't let you pin him down on what he is saying... and the most successful obfuscaters do the same.

Such techniques do work to keep people from understanding, and thus, they evolve. What else do creationists have other than obfuscation and pedantry and inferences that the other side is wrong? They certainly don't have facts in favor of their viewpoint. And I think Judge Jones nailed it. I look forward to the Nova Special on November 13 on the topic. I would imagine that anyone who actually wanted to convey understanding to others on the topic would use the words and terminology and analogies of those who actually HAVE conveyed understanding to others on the topic instead of speaking in a manner indistinguishable from known woo. (Beware of folks who speak as though they are experts on a subject that no one else seems to recognize their expertise in.)
 
By all means, tell us what you think happened.

Like you, I think time+chance+magic.

Can you find me a rational IDer who holds that the designer is something other than god?

The ones who just say 'designer' and not 'god'? By logic that allows for non-god designers. What they personally feel about it is irrelevant to the theory.

Now can you find me an atheist who doesn't believe Darwin didn't make it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist?

I guess it is shocking news that alll 'grand' theories have some implication for other parts of life.
 

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